[NSRCA-discussion] Off topic: independence day

Fri Jul 11 20:09:23 AKDT 2008

When I first started reading this, I was thinking "Here we go again." Then I 
finished reading and see you agree with me... S&G is a crock. To me 
following all the other rules in the book is what makes the pattern smooth 
and graceful.

Matt

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave" <DaveL322 at comcast.net>
To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Off topic: independence day

> S+G.  Smoothness and Gracefulness - a radius that is "too tight" could be
> downgraded because it is not smooth and graceful.  So square horizontal
> eight with 8 tight radii and perfect geometry could score less than a 10 
> due
> to the completely ambiguous "S+G" criteria.  And because S+G downgrades 
> are
> not specified, it is entirely possible that a geometrically imperfect 
> square
> horizontal eight could receive a higher score because it was "S+G" - 
> Despite
> the fact that geometry is the #1 criteria.  (yes, my opinion is that S+G 
> is
> a crock for the most part).
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Matthew
> Frederick
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 9:18 PM
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Off topic: independence day
>
> It was clear enough, I undestood what you meant, but I can just as easily
> say the same... If the pilot has to "rush" the first radius, he should be
> able to use his skill to make all the other radii in the maneuver the 
> same.
> If for some reason you're forced to pull a tight radius first, just fly 
> the
> maneuver so that tight radii are pulled throughout. There's nothing in the
> rulebook that says a radius has to be a certain size.
>
> Matt
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Fuqua" <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com>
> To: <mjfrederick at cox.net>
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 7:20 PM
> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Off topic: independence day
>
>
>>
>> In this system the first radius only sets the standard for the second
>> radius.  Then the second sets the standard for the third.  The third for
>> the
>> fourth and so on.  The first radius is only used once.  Guess we were not
>> clear enough.  Yes you could get a downgrade for every radius if every 
>> one
>> was different from its predecessor but I guess that's where pilot skill
>> comes in.  But from a judging perspective you only have to remember the
>> last
>> one.
>>
>> There is no way most will remember the first 2 of 3 (1 and 2, 1 and 3 or 
>> 2
>> and 3)  when the pilot gets to 6 or 7 or 8.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mjfrederick at cox.net [mailto:mjfrederick at cox.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 3:27 PM
>> To: johnfuqua at embarqmail.com; General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Off topic: independence day
>>
>> The problem with using this type of judging is: what if radii 2,4,6,8 are
>> all the same and 1,3,5,7 are all the same... According to the current
>> rule,
>> only half of the radii deserved a downgrade, but using the previous 
>> radius
>> to judge the current radius would lead to every radius but the first 
>> being
>> downgraded. If you allow the first to set the standard, the person
>> receives
>> the same score as the current rule intends for them to receive without 
>> the
>> ambiguity of the judging criteria.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> ---- John Fuqua <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>>  the RCA Board liked Mark's idea here but it came up to late in the
>>> cycle to make any adjustments.  Yes the first radii is used to judge
>>> the second, but the second then becomes the standard for the third and
>>> so on.  From a judges point of view I do not know how it could get any
>>> clearer or easier to implement.  If all 8 are different then the pilot
>>> deserves the appropriate score.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>> atwoodm at paragon-inc.com
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 10:59 PM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Off topic: independence day
>>>
>>> I have always felt that the best way to judge this would be to simply
>>> downgrade any CHANGE in radius.  Thus you are always simply comparing 
>>> the
>>> last radius to the current one.   If you work through it, it scores
>>> pretty
>>> well.
>>>
>>> The worst case example would be in an eight where you vary every other
>>> radius from large to small (which actually happens a lot given corner on
>> tbe
>>> top and bottom).
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ron Van Putte <vanputte at cox.net>
>>>
>>> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 20:47:38
>>> To: General pattern discussion<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Off topic: independence day
>>>
>>>
>>> I would argue against that there "has never been a rule (in AMA) that
>>> the 1st radii is the standard for the maneuver".
>>>
>>> I've been judging for many years and I challenge anyone to be able to
>>> sort through all the different radii in a Square Horizontal Eight,
>>> decide what the "standard' radius was, how much the various radii
>>> differed from it, assign downgrades and write a score on the
>>> scoresheet before the airplane was in the next maneuver.
>>>
>>> Regards also,
>>>
>>> Ron Van Putte
>>>
>>> On Jul 9, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>
>>> > "Since, in the latest vote on rule changes, RCA-09-3 failed, we need
>>> > to train judges that 1. The first radius does not set the standard"
>>> >
>>> > I sincerely hope prior training was not contrary to the above?  It
>>> > has never been a rule (in AMA) that the 1st radii is the standard
>>> > for the maneuver - and it never should be!!  When 7 radii in a
>>> > square 8 are the same, and 1 is different - it should be painfully
>>> > obvious which radii is to be downgraded.
>>> > FAI has screwed up making the 1st radii the standard for the
>>> > maneuver - no need for AMA to blindly follow that error (or any
>>> > others - ie, AMA rules should never include process or procedure to
>>> > automatically adopt anything from FAI - AMA can always choose to
>>> > copy or follow FAI).
>>> >
>>> > Noting every single error and element in complex maneuvers is not
>>> > easy (nor is flying them easy).  And just like every pilot is not
>>> > capable of every maneuver, not every judge is going to catch all
>>> > errors all the time.  This is a competitive event, and for the both
>>> > the pilot and the just, there is only 1 that is the best.  And in
>>> > both cases, the "best" is probably the one with the "best"
>>> > combination of talent, hardwork, practice, and training.  I see no
>>> > need to either dumb down the maneuvers or dumb down the judging
>>> > criteria to blur the distinction between the best and 2nd best -
>>> > seems quite contrary to the goal in pattern of perfect maneuvers.
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> >
>>> > Dave Lockhart
>>> > DaveL322 at comcast.net
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>> > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron
>>> > Van Putte
>>> > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 10:36 AM
>>> > To: General pattern discussion
>>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Off topic: independence day
>>> >
>>> > I wonder how many judges are able to do all those steps in
>>> > determining and recording a score before the next maneuver starts.
>>> > Remember, many of these judges are the ones who can't write down a
>>> > score without looking away from the airplane and looking down at the
>>> > scoresheet.
>>> >
>>> > Ron VP
>>> >
>>> > On Jul 9, 2008, at 9:31 AM, Joe Dunnaway wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> It's nothing different than what we have been doing.
>>> >>
>>> >> Joe Dunnaway
>>> >>
>>> >> Ron Van Putte wrote:
>>> >>> Yeah, lets quit talking about that.  Plus, let's not talk about
>>> >>> spins and snaps.  Let's talk about how to judge the eight
>>> >>> different radii in the Square Horizontal Eight.  Since, in the
>>> >>> latest vote on rule changes, RCA-09-3 failed, we need to train
>>> >>> judges that 1. The first radius does not set the standard,   2.
>>> >>> They have to decide what radius represents most of the radii in
>>> >>> the maneuver,  3.  They must determine how each radius deviates
>>> >>> from this standard and assign a downgrade,  4.  They then must add
>>> >>> up all the downgrades and subtract the sum of the downgrades from
>>> >>> 10 and 5.  They must write the score down on the scoresheet before
>>> >>> the airplane enters the next maneuver.  Nothing to it; it just
>>> >>> takes a little training.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Ron VP
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Jul 8, 2008, at 10:41 PM, Wayne Galligan wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> Now we are back to the driveway, parkway thing huh?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> WG
>>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>>> From: Keith Hoard
>>> >>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 3:50 AM
>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Off topic: independence day
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> "Then I stopped in the middle of the road and went outside began
>>> >>>> yelling at people to 'get the hell out of my driveway!!!' . . ."
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 10:42 PM, Wayne Galligan
>>> >>>> <wgalligan at att.net> wrote:
>>> >>>> Actually Steven Wright went home one night and put the key in the
>>> >>>> door to the house to open it and it started.... so he drove it
>>> >>>> around the block.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> WG
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>>> From: Tim Taylor
>>> >>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 4:15 PM
>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Off topic: independence day
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Steven Wright not Carlin
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> --- On Mon, 7/7/08, Ron Van Putte <vanputte at cox.net> wrote:
>>> >>>> From: Ron Van Putte <vanputte at cox.net>
>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Off topic: independence day
>>> >>>> To: "General pattern discussion"
>>> >>>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> >>>> Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 3:08 PM
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Yeah, but as George Carlin once asked, "Why do we drive on the
>>> >>>> parkway and park on the driveway?" Ron VP On Jul 7, 2008, at
>>> >>>> 12:54 PM, Anthony Abdullah wrote: > Particularly considering a
>>> >>>> bra holds a pair of... Well, you know > what I am getting at. > >
>>> >>>> Bob Richards <bob at toprudder.com> wrote: > I'm still waiting for
>>> >>>> them to burn pantys. > > BTW, how come is it a "pair of pantys"
>>> >>>> but only "one bra"??? > > Bob R > > --- On Mon, 7/7/08, Del
>>> >>>> <drykert2 at rochester.rr.com> wrote: > Hmmm `~ brings back memories
>>> >>>> when women insisted on burning their > bra's... ~~ I never
>>> >>>> complained~~ just raised my eyelids for closer > observation..
>>> >>>> <g> > > Del > > ps ~~ realize it may be an age related comment ..
>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-
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>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> --
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Keith Hoard
>>> >>>> Collierville, TN
>>> >>>> khoard at gmail.com
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>
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