[NSRCA-discussion] Expert Class??
Dr. Mike Harrison
drmikedds at sbcglobal.net
Mon Feb 4 13:10:29 AKST 2008
My assessment of what I have seen the last many years is that pilots drop out because they are tired of flying pattern for any number of reasons, but it is not really the class they are flying in. It is a number of other reasons. However, they choose to blame the advancement requirement because it is convenient as a scapegoat.
Understanding there is no perfect system no matter what you attempt, then I say leave it as it is. Use the AMA appeal system to go back. We have a very competitive busy region and we know who's who and we are leniet where need be. Never been an issue.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: rcmaster199 at aol.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Expert Class??
"""My gut feeling based on what I have personally witnessed is that most who spend the time to try and compete in the FAI class can reasonable make it through an F round without fear of crashing. Sure they may not score an 8 on that mult-rolling loop thingi-majig, but they will get a 3 or a 4 on it and move onto the next maneuver. By the end of the season they might even get a 6 on it and will have improved their flying. """"
I agree in letter.....problem is with spirit of the thing. Guys appear to get frustrated with low scores no matter how much they practice the tough maneuvers. There is little "payment" and that frustrates.
"""I think it was unanimous (or very close if I recall correctly) that FAI move to the 4 P, 2 F, and finals setup""""
That's great and I certainly appreciate the arrangement. How has it been managing the Judging (both quantity of and quality of) in this arrangement?
""""At the end of the day flying F or not, the same people are going to win, it wont change the results."""''
I agree........BUT, Having flown Pattern for around 30 years now, it seems to me that we, the ones that don't get to fly on World teams, just want to fly well in front of our peers and have something positive to show for all of that hard practice (read, expenses in both money and time)
""""""""Starting this year team results at the WC are based on all rounds not just the prelims."""""""
Best argument yet proposed for F flights (as opposed to against)
MattK
-----Original Message-----
From: Chad Northeast <chadnortheast at shaw.ca>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 11:58 am
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Expert Class??
It seems to me that most of the resistance to flying FAI flying F at local events is coming from Masters fliers? Maybe this is simply demographics (its the largest class of flyers), but I dont see a lot of FAI guys on the list saying they dont want it. I find this quite intriguing! I have some questions for the Masters pilots who don't want F flown in FAI locally.
a) is this because you don't want to be bothered judging two different sequences?
b) is this because you one day wish to move to FAI and don't want to be bothered learning to fly two sequences?
c) is it because you feel it will hurt local contest attendance?
My gut feeling based on what I have personally witnessed is that most who spend the time to try and compete in the FAI class can reasonable make it through an F round without fear of crashing. Sure they may not score an 8 on that mult-rolling loop thingi-majig, but they will get a 3 or a 4 on it and move onto the next maneuver. By the end of the season they might even get a 6 on it and will have improved their flying.
A few years back we had a vote at the Nats of all FAI pilots in attendance about how to continue running the Nats. Either to stay the course of 6 P rounds and finals, or move to the Worlds arrangement of 4 P, 2 F, then finals. I think it was unanimous (or very close if I recall correctly) that FAI move to the 4 P, 2 F, and finals setup. This would mean a LOT of pilots who had no real chance of making the finals would suddenly be flying the F pattern. I know for fact that some of these pilots went back to Masters at future Nats, and I would ask them if they are disappointed in the direction that the Nats took?
However, only a few years (maybe two years) after that decision, FAI had one of the largest turnout's at the Nats in the past 10 years. Why is that? Well, I have been to 4 world championships and can tell you that there is not a single other event that comes as close to the WC as the US Nats does, simple as that. I think the large majority of FAI fliers would welcome flying F....its in the nature of those who compete in that class IMO.
At the end of the day flying F or not, the same people are going to win, it wont change the results. It will add another level to the contest, and it will improve the flying of anyone in that class. How can that be anything but win-win? Will flying F hurt or help local contest attendance?
I realize being from Canada I don't have any say in US pattern....but we fly exactly the same Masters up here, and there are similar thoughts about flying F at local events up here, so all the comments and thoughts on the matter cross the border to us :) There are definitely a few events that will be running both sequences this season, it will be interesting to see how they make out.
Also, not sure if this has been mentioned or not. Starting this year team results at the WC are based on all rounds not just the prelims. So having F flown at local events can give the team fliers a lot more exposure to it than they would previously otherwise have had.
Jason said he is gone to E-fest so someone has to take over LOL :)
Chad
----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Romano <anthonyr105 at hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, February 4, 2008 8:32 am
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Exper Class??
To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>
> HMMM. Ponder this
> Masters is the largest class at just about any contest in the country.
> Masters presents a large judging load.
> Many want to leave Masters as it stands.
> Many Masters pilots are frustrated by the extreme depth and
> competitiveness of the Masters class.
> A number of pilots want to fly FAI but are not ready for F sequences.
> Many FAI pilots don't have the resources to prepare for 2 sequences.
> Many of the top FAI pilots don't participate because we don't
> fly F sequences.
>
> Adding an expert class that flies the current P could help.
> Sequence development and rules are already done. It would
> increases the judge and competitor pool while improving the
> level of flying and judging. Really no more work in scoring. So
> other than an extra set of awards, which most would gladly
> waive, what harm would it cause?
>
> If my club would let me CD a contest again I would try it. Once
> again I agree with Jason. Should I be worried?
>
> Anthony
>
>
> From: jshulman at cfl.rr.comTo: nsrca-
> discussion at lists.nsrca.orgDate: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 16:49:09 -
> 0500Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing Masters?
>
>
>
>
>
> Sorry Doug, that makes too much sense and follows the basis of
> the way pattern is supposed to be. That's unacceptable...lol.
>
> 8.2.5. There is no mandatory advancement into FAI from the
> Masters class. Contestants may enter their current AMA class or
> the FAI class at any contest but not both.
>
> If a pilot does not like the way FAI is flown, he does not have
> to fly it. An Expert class seems like a logical "solution" , but
> I believe it has been shot down many times before. Wouldn't this
> be a great way to get the one's who want more of a challenge
> than Masters, but don't want to fly F, a class of their own? It
> could even be an "FAI type" of class where Masters is still the
> highest class to advance into but pilots can jump into and out
> of Expert at any time. Establish a rule, written or not, that
> the pattern can not have any integrated rolling loops or
> circles. This would allow the FAI pilots to continue to fly FAI,
> not just half of it. Masters and Expert pilots could judge FAI,
> FAI and Expert judge Masters, FAI and Masters judge Expert.
>
> Sportsman- gets feet wet
> Intermediate- likes wet feet
> Advanced- ready to learn more
> Masters- ready to fly more of what was learned
> *Expert- the imaginary perfect in-between class
> FAI- wants to be challenged beyond what was learned
>
> I really hope that here locally (D3) we don't do away with the F
> sequence. But if that is what the majority decide is best for
> the class, so be it. I know of 4 pilots that want to continue to
> fly F, and they already compete in FAI.
> Regards,Jasonwww.jasonshulman.comwww.shulmanaviation.comwww.composite-arf.com
>
> -----Original Message-----From: nsrca-discussion-
> bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-
> bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Doug CronkhiteSent: Sunday,
> February 03, 2008 4:14 PMTo: 'NSRCA Mailing List'Subject: Re:
> [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing Masters?
>
> Actually, I think the solution is to just decide once and for
> all that Masters will not be the training ground for FAI and
> make the Masters sequence the destination difficulty. I suspect
> that’s actually been done several times and people just keep
> trying to change it.
>
> If people want to fly FAI, then they have to just deal with the
> problems that go along with it. No more complaining that the
> jump from Masters to FAI is too hard or they don’t have the
> right airplane, because well.. too bad.
>
> Seems like this topic goes around the list AT LEAST once a year.
>
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> vicenterc at comcast.netSent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 12:43 PMTo:
> NSRCA Mailing List; NSRCA Mailing ListSubject: Re: [NSRCA-
> discussion] changed topic to killing Masters?
>
>
> Jason,
>
>
>
> I agree. Another solution is get the Master class the
> level that was 8-10 years ago. It was between Advanced and
> FAI-F3A. It was natural for pilots wining Masters to move
> to FAI and not like we see now more moving from F3A to
> Masters. It is clear to me that the new Master schedule is
> equal or harder than the new P schedule.
>
>
>
> --Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message -------------- From: "JShulman"
> <jshulman at cfl.rr.com>
>
> So if FAI pilots, that are flying FAI now, want to fly FAI (P
> and F), and Masters pilots, that are flying Masters now, want to
> fly Masters, what are we really "discussing"? Are we looking for
> a middle class to call Masters + for the guys that want to fly P
> and not F or Masters? Sounds like the addition of an Expert
> class in AMA to give the fliers in Masters, that want a P type
> of sequence, a place to go?
>
>
>
> Regards,Jasonwww.jasonshulman.comwww.shulmanaviation.comwww.composite-arf.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message -------------- From: "John
> Fuqua" <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com>
> I have been following this discussion with some relutance to
> jump in. As a current Masters pilot and old time F3A flyer
> I to once pushed to have the Master schedule be the P
> schedule. But you guys need to look at what FAI has done
> to the P schedule. Here is link to the F3A rules.
> http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/documents/sc4 ;
> FAI has reduced the total maneuvers to 19 including a non scored
> takeoff and landing. AMA Master is 23 including a
> scored takeoff and landing.
>
> Going to FAI would certainly speed things up (which is what FAI
> intended for large contests like WC to speed up the prelims and
> get to the real contest).
>
> Not sure this is what AMA/NSRCA membership wants for a
> destination class.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Del RykertSent:
> Sunday, February 03, 2008 7:14 AMTo: NSRCA Mailing ListSubject:
> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] changed topic to killing Masters?
>
>
>
> Hi Dave..
>
>
>
> I never saw anyone suggesting to do away with the Masters
> class.. I have thought of another restriction/factor. Some of
> the FAI maneuvers require a specific designed plane to do them
> well. If you don't have such an aircraft in your stable you can
> be looking at a prohibitive change to switch to those type of
> planes or live with the self imposed handicap. Granted, some of
> the best can make a good showing in FAI type maneuvers but when
> needing the 1 point advantage in a high K-Factor maneuver it
> does drive the contestants to seek the best sled that works for
> them.
>
>
>
> A good friend pointed out something I had lost sight of
> once. He acquired a newer designed airplane to his stable
> that performed the maneuvers he was flying so much easier. The
> design choice alone was raising his scores by almost 1 point per
> maneuver. With only a little bit of practice with new plane. He
> never appreciated the handicap he self imposed until having
> better equipment. Heck.. I still have coreless servos and not a
> digital do I own.. How far behind am I? LOL.
>
>
>
> Del
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Dave Burton
>
> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
>
> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 7:33 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?
>
>
>
> Del, I’ve never advocated doing away with the Master’s class. I
> only suggested adopting the most current FAI P maneuver schedule
> and fly Master’s as a separate class as we do today. Masters
> pilots would not be required to advance to the FAI class unless
> they chose to do so. Seems to me like it solves several
> problems. It allows a CD to have more flexibility in arranging
> flight lines, a larger pool of knowledgeable judges, eliminates
> the need for NSRCA (or others) to come up with a new schedule
> periodically for the Masters Class. I don’t think there is any
> difference in the difficulty level of the P schedule and the
> Masters schedule today and would not require any greater skill
> level than Masters does today IMO.
> Dave Burton
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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