[NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?
JShulman
jshulman at cfl.rr.com
Fri Feb 1 16:36:34 AKST 2008
True.
I will have to get a new FAI rule book. One thing I've liked is that there
wasn't an issue (at least not very vocal) about flying both P and F in D3
for the past 2 years. I hope it continues that way, but if CD's wish to fly
F, they just need to announce it as such. They are not obligated to do so
(as per FAI rules) but again, it's been nice to do so here in D3. Maybe it
can be P only in Ocala if they change the dates to the 8-9th. FL Jets is the
same weekend as the proposed dates. I guess as long as it's advertised one
way or the other, pilots can decide which events to attend for the patterns
being flown.
Regards,
Jason
www.jasonshulman.com
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Tony
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 3:48 PM
To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?
Jason:
I don’t know of ANY pattern contest held in the USA other than the US
Nationals or the USA F3A Team selection (if it is held separately from the
NATS) that lasts “more than 2 days”.
Tony Stillman, President
Radio South, Inc.
139 Altama Connector, Box 322
Brunswick, GA 31525
1-800-962-7802
www.radiosouthrc.com
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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Del Rykert
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 3:24 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?
So it would be acceptable to you to drive some away from pattern as it has
been clearly stated that some Master fliers by choice do not want to fly FAI
type schedules. It has been voted on with surveys and discussed on this
list in the past to not use that approach.
Del
----- Original Message -----
From: vicenterc at comcast.net
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?
I believe that FAI rules states that it is required more than 2 days
event to fly F schedule. I am sure that someone out there is going to be
able to find if I am correct or not. Of course, we can use the AMA rules
and the CD can override this if he announces the change with time.
I agree that in Masters we should fly the current P schedule. This will
make a natural transition when moving Masters to F3A. The rules should be
changed to make the F3A class the final destination of AMA classes. In
other worlds, Masters should not be the final destination as it is now.
--
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Tony" <tony at radiosouthrc.com>
Those are the very reasons that I stopped flying FAI. The FAI rules
state that the F patterns are for Regional, National and International
events, and are not designed to be flown at a local contest.
Tony Stillman, President
Radio South, Inc.
139 Altama Connector, Box 322
Brunswick, GA 31525
1-800-962-7802
www.radiosouthrc.com
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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony
Romano
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:36 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] F at locals?
Another good point Jason. The more that the F is flown and judged the
better we all get at it. I can fly Masters or the P with equal mediocrity
but the F always just scared me off. Maybe one of my goals for this year
will be to learn it. Now if everyone promises no laughing I might try it.
From comments I have hear a lot of guys just don't want to deal with
rollers.
Anthony
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From: jshulman at cfl.rr.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:08:38 -0500
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?
Problem with that is that we're finding that enough FAI guys don't
want to fly F... so why hold 2 FAI- P classes? I understand getting to know
1 sequence is easier to judge, but the Masters and FAI guys should be able
to have a handle on the other class without much work. Its probably just me,
but if FAI were to fly both P and F, then having "Masters" fly P might be a
more Masters class this way. Then again, I may be off in left field, or is
this right? And since now both the Team Trials and Worlds pick the winning
teams at the end of the contest (after F) it would make more sense to start
flying F locally so it's not a shock come Nats time.
Regards,
Jason
www.jasonshulman.com
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Dave Burton
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:53 PM
To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?
There is a way to solve the peer judging and several other problems
with changing maneuver schedules for Master’s class.
Let Masters class fly the most current FAI P schedule as a separate
class. This provides a way that FAI class can judge Masters and be
completely familiar with the maneuvers and Masters class can judge FAI and
be completely familiar with the schedule. Then the rules committee does not
have to come up with a new schedule periodically as it changes every other
year just like FAI. The schedules (P & Masters) are so close in difficulty
that flying the P schedule should not be any problem for masters class
flyers.
OK, Flame suit on!
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Mark Atwood
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 3:56 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?
For our “matrix” version, the A& B masters groups, we effectively ran
2 contests. The scorer set up a second masters only contest for the B panel
to enter their scores. It worked quite well with only a little confusion.
It did a great job of picking the top 5 guys and getting them into the
top 8. I’m pretty sure you could argue that 7-12th place might have had
some variance...but I think that’s true regardless of the format.
-Mark
On 1/31/08 3:49 PM, "Anthony Romano" <anthonyr105 at hotmail.com> wrote:
I suspected this would require super- human objectivity as well as
be a logistical nightmare. However, everyone reall knows the sequence.
Really like the matrix system but not sure how much work that makes for the
scorer. Anyone have any thoughts on how to score that
One idea that was kicked around in D1 was fly an extra round in
Masters to generate an extra throw away. Each round two masters pilots judge
and don't fly rotating through the entire class. It seems like the time
required would work out the same because the group had two less pilots but
again lot of objectivity ( conscious and unconscious ) required especially
as the contest end grew near.
Anthony
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:14:15 -0500
From: atwoodm at paragon-inc.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org; nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?
Anthony,
I have to agree with Jim, but for different reasons. We did this
about 4 years back at our district championships with the masters class. We
had 17 pilots in masters, and only one (me) in FAI, and another 6 or 7 in
advanced. So getting any judging at all would have required heavily using
the Intermediate and Sportsman classes to judge, OR, heavily burdening the
few Advanced guys...and sitting through 17 masters flights is a looooong
sentence.
So we did the peer judging scenario. Given the options, it worked
very well. But it requires some serious juggling to even try and make it
work well. We ! used pe er judging for 4 of the 6 rounds. Two flight
lines, with a rolling panel of judges. 5 judges on each line, tossed high
and low by maneuver leaving 7 pilots not judging at any given time. This
allowed the person before and after each flight some time to prep and
decompress before having to jump in the chair for 5 flights and then start
over on the second line.
It’s a VERY VERY VERY busy process, not to mention that unless you
completely randomly resort the flight line each round, the pilot will be
judged but the same group...or maybe more importantly NOT judged by the same
group each round.
It worked...but it was messy. I would only do it again if we were
presented with the same grossly offset numbers of entries.
On a related note... A better solution was tried a few years later
when we had similar numbers (16 masters pilots)
We created 2 classes of masters...A and B. we still used FAI and
Advanced j! udges, but we were also able to sprinkle in B judges for A and
vice versa. We did 4 rounds for each group. Took the top 4 from each group
and combined them and they flew the last 2 rounds as a “Finalists” group
(with the other 8 judging and flying in their own group for the bottom 8
spots.)
This was MUCH more workable, and I think netted a fairer event in the
long run.
-Mark
On 1/31/08 2:46 PM, "Woodward, Jim" <jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
wrote:
Hey Anthony,
**** Attempting a 50 words or less approach without too much regard
for political correctness *****
I don’t think peer judging works. I don’t think it sends the right
message about problem solving or achieving a more accurate score per
maneuver for each pilot. Psychology 101 would predict that it does not
foster the right mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment
(Reality TV shows like Survivor are based on one form or another of peer
judging).
The #1 component that must be correct for it to work is that all
pilot/judges see and subtract about the exact same number of points per
maneuver see the same downgrades. The situation doesn’t compute if one
judge is off from the others or uses impression judging. A bunch of stuff
should probably be in place for this to! work l ike: large number of
judges, drop high score, drop low score, etc. The highest caliber of honor,
integrity, and judge-education is required by all competitors to make this
work.
I witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI contest. I
watched the flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion is that I would
chose not to compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario.
Thanks,
Jim W.
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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us] On Behalf Of Anthony Romano
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:44 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?
Finally got a chance to read the current K-factor and saw a note on
the Tangerine contest. The article mentioned FAI was judged by a commity of
the FAI pilots. Could someone please provide details. Do you think you could
keep your objectivity? ! For tho se that were there how did it work out?
Sound interesting because you would finally be judged by pilots who know the
FAI rules and the sequence.
Could this be a solution for the oversized Masters class? Obvious
drawbacks too, but trying to inspire some thought.
Anthony
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