[NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion

Wed Sep 26 08:06:08 AKDT 2007

Thank you.
Jim Hiller

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of
vicenterc at comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 4:52 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List; NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion

Probably the avoidance callers between both lines makes sense.  He could be
consider a third judge.  If he sound the horn means that both pilots has the
right to bail out and they can resume the fly.  It has to be organized.  The
pilots flying in line A will be instructed to go down and cut the engine.
The pilots in line B will be instructed to go up.  Of course if they are
rolling they will need to stop rolling.  We need to think what needs to be
done when we are flying vertical.  It could be one bail to the right and the
other bail to the left or just both cut engines.  The avoidance judges will
be the pilots that just finish their rounds.

I don't think that the pilot's caller can pay attention to both planes.  He
is busy trying to help the pilot and reading the next manuever.

Regards,

--
Vicente "Vince" Bortone

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Dave Michael" <davidmichael1 at comcast.net>
No- if it's obvious that you were in no danger of a mid-air then you get a
zero.
----- Original Message -----
From: J N Hiller <mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:17 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion

Thanks, now I understand. If I didnt hit the other airplane I obviously
didnt need to bail out and would receive a zero.
Jim Hiller

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Dave Michael
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 7:39 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion

No- you can't bail in this situation.  It would be obvious to the judges and
you'd receive a 0 on the manuever- and the next as well if you were to exit
in the wrong direction or orientation for the next manuever.
----- Original Message -----
From: J N Hiller <mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net>

To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion

If I am in the process of hosing a maneuver can I bail out claming mid-air
avoidance and re-fly it?
I have only had one mid-air in pattern competition and that was
pre-turnaround, on a turnaround over a quarter mile out. I had a close one
this year I saw the other airplane go by and heard the gasps from behind
without flinching. I flew in a Scale Masters finals competition once in
LasVegas with five flight lines. I have gotten so I dont pay any attention
to other airplanes when I am flying.
I guess I would flinch plenty, maybe even crash if we were using that 140 DB
air horn to warn of potential midairs.
Jim Hiller

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Dave Michael
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 4:45 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion

I recall a discussion on this subject earlier in the year.  My background is
heavy IMAC but I am wanting to fly some more pattern soon.  Part of the
earlier discussion was about the issue that calling avoidance and breaking
from the sequence if you think you might mid-air is allowed in IMAC but not
in pattern.

In 10+ years of IMAC competition- maybe 40-50 contests - I can only think of
a few mid-airs, maybe three or so.  Believe me when I say that calling
avoidance and breaking the sequence is not something that you want to do in
the heat of competition- it can really throw off a good sequence.  Having
said that, with fewer mid-airs  in IMAC perhaps we can conclude that
allowing sequence breaks to avoid potential mid-airs makes sense for pattern
too.

Dave Michael

----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Black <mailto:tkeithblack at gmail.com>

To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:47 PM
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion

Following my mid-air at the N. Dallas contest this weekend there's been an
RCU thread started on the subject. From this discussion an interesting idea
has evolved. For those who would like to read the thread here's the link:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6409493/anchors_6413018/mpage_1/key_/ancho
r/tm.htm#6413018

If you'd just like to hear the idea I'll paste my RCU posting below:

This is my third mid-air in four seasons. My first may have been avoided,
but the last two were a complete shock to both me and my caller. In fact, in
mid-air #2 my caller said "you're good" (meaning we were not going to hit).
The other pilot's caller walked up to me and apologized saying that he told
the other pilot that he was in the clear. Therefore, I don't know how
effective a third "spotter" sitting between the lines could be.
That being said, two recent events have given me an idea of how we might be
able to greatly improve this problem. The first light bulb was Vicente's
suggestion of the spotter that warns the pilots. The second event was my
walk out to pick up the fragments of my beloved Brio. As I was walking back
I stood for a bit to observe the planes looking down the flight path. It was
amazing how clearly you can see each plane as it moves in and out from the
flight line.
So here's the idea: What if we sat a spotter at the corner of the box to
watch plane separation in the distance out dimension and then had the other
spotter sitting between the judges (or even back under the cover) watching
in the right to left dimension. These two spotters could use radios with
headsets and continually talk to each other. There are many times that
planes appear to be close to a mid-air from the flight line viewpoint,
however, the number of times that both spotters would be alarmed should be!
fairly minimal. When this occurs the spotter could sound an alarm (this
deserves discussion as to the details) and each pilot could peel off of
their course. If one pilot froze the collision may still be avoided by just
one pilot taking action. Sure, this could cause a mid-air, but viewing from
two dimensions should help in alerting only when an impact is probable.
Some have stated that they've seen very few mid-airs, but my experience in
D6 and NATS is that at least 70% (if not more) of the contests I've attended
have had mid-airs. I'm not going to run away crying and quit the hobby due
to this mid-air, but reducing such losses would be a benefit to us all!
Keith Black
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