[NSRCA-discussion] D3 Championship - Scoring System Overhaul
vicenterc at comcast.net
vicenterc at comcast.net
Thu Oct 18 13:45:21 AKDT 2007
Check here from pages 2-6:
http://www.nzmaa.org.nz/sigs/NZRCAABulletins/NZRCAA%20SIG%20News%20-%202%20August%202001.pdf
--
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Tony" <tony at radiosouthrc.com>
Vicente:
No, it does not. It eliminates the INCORRECT score. Basically it works like this… Let’s say you and I are on a panel of 5 judges.. After we judge 25 flights together, the system “learns” us and can then predict what my score should be based on the score of the other four judges on the panel. If I am above or below that scoring range that is allowable, then my score is INCORRECT. I can be dropped or even adjusted up or down so that it then falls within the allowable range of what my score should have been.
Obviously this is an over simplification, but that’s pretty much how it works.
You should be able to find info on the NET on TBL and TBL(p) scoring, either on the full-scale aerobatics or FAI websites. Our C/L Aerobatic friends also use TBL..
Tony Stillman, President
Radio South, Inc.
139 Altama Connector, Box 322
Brunswick, GA 31525
1-800-962-7802
tony at radiosouthrc.com
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of vicenterc at comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 11:11 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 Championship - Scoring System Overhaul
Tony,
Do you know if the TBL system eliminates the high and low scores? I think that is a good solution but we can not do it in local contests. Probably we could in some contests since we have many Masters vs. F3A.
Do you know "link" where we can read about TBL system?
--
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Tony" <tony at radiosouthrc.com>
This TBL will find these problems and is in use at World Champs. The problem is that you need at least 5 judges on a line.
Tony Stillman, President
Radio South, Inc.
139 Altama Connector, Box 322
Brunswick, GA 31525
1-800-962-7802
tony at radiosouthrc.com
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of vicenterc at comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 10:44 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List; NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 Championship - Scoring System Overhaul
I agree with George. If I remember right from statistics courses 20 years ago, this type of problem follows the normal distribution or bell shape curve. In order to have any significant precision in the scoring system we will need to have at least 33 judges per round. We all know that it is impossible for us to have 33 judges per round. I also agree with George that at the end of the contest the winner is usually the best pilot and if you ask around very high percentage will agree with the results.
Well, we need a PHD in statistics to help us out.
--
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: <glmiller3 at suddenlink.net>
> I've said this before and most people don't "get it", but we are asking more
> precision from our scoring system than is mathematically possible.
>
> In the case of FAI scores, the raw scores are rounded to one significant digit
> (whole numbers only from 1-10). This means that after any mathematical
> manipulation, the result is only "Accurate" to one digit and the result should
> be rounded to that digit using some standardized "rounding algorithm".... We are
> manipulating a single digit of significance and basing outcomes on up to EIGHT
> digits (1234.5678 ). Mathematically speaking any "normalized score" between
> 950.0000 and 1000.0000 is the same score.....900 to 949; 850-900; etc. All
> other problems of judgin! g incon sistency, bias, averaging, etc pale in
> comparison.
>
> As I've said before, I'm astounded that a system that is so mathematically
> flawed can provide results that are as good as they are....for my part, I
> usually feel like I have been ranked pretty fairly compared to the other pilots
> in my class even though the ranking is based on statistically meaningless
> numbers.
>
> George
>
>
> ---- "Woodward wrote:
> > Guys -
> >
> >
> >
> > 1. Why do we average judge's scores together?
> >
> > a. The whole system is predicated on judges being
> > competent/consistent/correct/un-biased. If this first rule is violated
> > ranging from small to 100 point raw score difference, the idea of now
> > "averaging" the score also has no validity.
> > b. Why not just let each judge's score stand as! is, < B R>> > unaltered, and produce two normalized scores per round?
> > c. Averaging the scores together may be doing a disservice
> > to everyone.
> > d. You would basically have two sets of scores per round.
> > IE you may end up with 1000 points on one card, and an 800 on the other.
> >
> > e. This would identify immediately any cause for concern.
> > f. Would it provide an immediate training tool back to our
> > system of pilots, judges, and CD?
> > g. Attempting to "un-average" the scores to determine what
> > happened takes place anyway on the flight line, after the scores are
> > printed.
> >
> > 2. Are we asking too much from judges?
> >
> > a. Is applying downgrades, then counting backwards from 10,
> > in the context of "turnaround" pattern where maneuvers can happen
> > back-to-back quickly, too d! ifficul t across the full spectrum of
> > competitor/judges?
> >
> > 3. Dropping Rounds:
> >
> > a. Is this still a good idea?
> > b. I wouldn't mind dropping one round, but it was explained
> > to me last night that this is an artifact from the days of when people
> > would break a prop on touch-n-goes, and in general lower equipment
> > reliability.
> > c. In the age of higher equipment reliability, is the
> > 'round-drop' scenarios still good, left as is?
> >
> > 4. Dropping Rounds - Take 2:
> >
> > a. In the context of point #1, maybe we should be allowed
> > to drop the lowest scored judge from each round, versus the entire
> > round.
> > b. Why should the pilot drop the entire round, when one
> > judge may have scored him 1000 points, and the other 800?
> ; > c. If you end up with a! tie at the end, you just keep
> > counting "1000's" until the other pilot runs out - tie is now "untied."
> >
> >
> >
> > I hope some smart guys can chime in on potential over-hauling idea.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Lisa &
> > Larry
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 10:27 PM
> > To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 Championship
> >
> >
> >
> > OK...I probably shouldn't start this, but I will...
> >
> >
> >
> > I haven't read all the threads, but I have read the ones below
> > in this series.
> >
> >
> >! ;
& gt; > The NSRCA has already set the standard and a method to determine
> > judging bias and has held a NSRCA member accountable to this standard
> > this year and the AMA sanctioned the individual. This is fact....Agree
> > with the method to determine bias (or not) it was used to impose an AMA
> > sanction on a member.
> >
> >
> >
> > IMHO this discussion suggests that bias has occurred in the D3
> > championship or possibly another at the same level FAI. If this is the
> > case the NSRCA must review this and apply the same discipline using the
> > same measurables to provide for the same sanctions.
> >
> >
> >
> > If the NSRCA is unwilling to investigate or isn't willing to use
> > the same method to determine bias, then clearly we (the NSRCA and AMA)
> > have dise nfranchised a NSRCA member and should r! ethink his sanction.
> >
> >
> >
> > Our rules and penalties must check and balance. Then they must
> > be applied to all members equally regardless of status in membership.
> > This is the only way to reduce / eliminate bias. I'm also unwilling to
> > entertain the thought the District Championship is any less important to
> > the NATS. They are both sanctioned contests ran by a CD accountable to
> > the AMA.
> >
> >
> >
> > Flame suit on...
> >
> >
> >
> > Larry Diamond
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: Mike Hester
> >
> > To: NSRCA Mailing List
> &g t;
> >
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 2:24 PM
> > !
> ; > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 Championship
> >
> >
> >
> > He's not alone. Although he probably should work on the delivery
> > ;)
> >
> >
> >
> > I would support any of the 5 proposals that Ryan listed. Judging
> > FAI can be frustrating enough, but to be told you're not getting it
> > right when you're already doing everything you know how to do, that's a
> > hard pill to swallow regardless of the statement's accuracy.
> >
> >
> >
> > You guys out there do need to realize these guys can fly...and
> > are very good...problem is they're flying against this Jason dude,
> > travels a lot, flys all the time, might even have a national title or 2
> > along the way, not sure. I'm sure you kno w the type. *ahem*
> >
> >
> >
> > Because my wife ! general ly keeps scores in D3, we have some
> > pretty good access to each and every score entered. I can tell you guys
> > without a doubt at times there are some SERIOUS differences in scores
> > between judges on the same round. I don't mean a little, I mean like 100
> > points on the RAW score. Even if this Jason character was flying
> > straight 10s, the differences if you work them out mean the others are
> > barely flying a straight line....and that's not the case. I have no
> > doubt these guys don't think they should be beating Jason in a 6 round
> > contest where 2 of the rounds are "F" rounds, but I am sure most people
> > would agree the scoring could use some improvements.
> >
> >
> >
> > Being one of these evil incompetent D3 masters judges *ahem* I
> > would certainly support more of a cooperative effort than some kind of
>! > p rotest. I have been very supportive of all the FAI guys and especially
> > the scoring, and am usually the guys everybody throws something at
> > during a judging seminar because I'm trying to clarify something that
> > effects mainly FAI.
> >
> >
> >
> > I think to identify the "problem" will take a willingness to
> > recognize that the situation is caused by a LOT of factors, not any one
> > or two. If anyone's interested, I'll outline the ones I see clearly.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure if this will all have the intended effect that jim
> > was looking for in the end, but if nothing else it does draw some
> > attention to a situation and we should have a closer look.
> >
> >
> >
> > As for me, soon I'll be practicing, bracing for the onslought of
> > FAI pilots come to master! s to pu nish me =)
> >
> >
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: McLaughlin, Ryan (FRS.JAX)
> >
> >
> > To: NSRCA Mailing List
> >
> >
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 1:50 PM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 Championship
> >
> >
> >
> > I didn't want you to stand alone in this...it's too
> > important.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Woodward,
> > Jim
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 1:31 PM
> > To: NSRCA Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 Champ! ionship
> >
> > Ryan M.,
> >
> > I think this takes the cake as a first time
> > nsrca-list email. Thank you for the support.
> >
> > Jim W.
> >
> >
> >
> > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message,
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> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> >
> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>! ; > McLaughlin, Ryan (FRS.JAX)
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 1:19 PM
> > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] D3 Championship
> >
> > This is my first post to the NSRCA list as I am
> > a bit 'internet shy', but I thought I might be able to add some value to
> > the FAI judging discussion Jim W started. Although I tend to err on the
> > side of diplomacy : ), I believe the feelings Jim expressed are
> > legitimate and shared by many FAI competitors throughout the country.
> > As a long time participant, I realize that bias is not a new problem but
> > I do not think we should accept this is as a "fact of life" and move on.
> > I think we have an excellent opportunity here and we should make the
> > most of it.
> >
> > The primary issue to address in my opinion is
> > not disparity i! n judgi ng standards between judges, though as Earl points
> > out, this is important. Rather, it is the different standard applied to
> > pilots within one score set--i.e.. scoring a pilot lower or higher based
> > on who he is. Our penchant for creating "superstars" is the most
> > discouraging aspect of FAI competition. To remedy this, we must all
> > make a conscious decision to change a long established tradition in our
> > sport. Are we ready to take this on?
> >
> > Complaining isn't the answer and neither is
> > staying quiet, a mistake that has made the FAI competitors as
> > responsible as anyone else for the situation. To this end, I submit for
> > your review the following ideas to specifically target the FAI bias
> > issue:
> >
> > 1. Sacrifice one FAI round per contest to serve
> > as an "open" round for all contestants e! xpected to judge FAI during the
> > event. Allow everyone to compare notes and use this as a coaching
> > opportunity.
> >
> > 2. Drop one FAI pilot to Masters at each
> > contest to serve as a judge for all rounds and use volunteers from other
> > classes to serve as the others. This would have to be an agreement made
> > among FAI pilots.
> >
> > 3. Extend the pilots meeting to go over
> > specific issues, maybe a new one or two every meet rather than just
> > pointing out the landing zone, etc. Make a "mini" judging seminar
> > mandatory each contest.
> >
> > 4. Certify judges for FAI on a volunteer basis
> > and only use "certified" judges in the contest.
> >
> & gt; 5. Utilize peer judging, in other words, have
> > FAI pilots judge themselves. If a pilot is not flying, he is judging
> > his fel! low com petitors.
> >
> > Some of this may seem radical, but I believe
> > there is room for a bit of this. Pattern belongs to us right? I
> > welcome any ideas or critique anyone can offer. I will clarify any of
> > the above upon request.
> >
> > Thank you for your consideration.
> >
> > Ryan McLaughlin
> > Eustis, Florida
> >
> >
> >
> >
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