[NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines, and Box Definition

Tue May 15 22:35:14 AKDT 2007

Matt,
  Pennie and I, at one time, showed horses and if you think a judges score is
  sometimes irritating when flying airplanes you should try horses and all the 
  money that involves. It would upset me a lot sometimes until one show I was
  talking to a contestant, who I thought obviously had the best horse but did not 
  win, and I couldn't understand why he wasn't more upset about the outcome.
  He told me any time there are human judges involved you're just paying for
  someone elses opinion and if you can't accept that you should get out of the
  business. Made a lot of sense to me.

  tommy s

Matthew Frederick <mjfrederick at cox.net> wrote:
      v\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  o\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  w\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  .shape {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }        st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }              Yes, Lance, so many choices, each one further away than the last. I don't understand why it's so hard for people to accept that a judge could have been wrong? Same contest in question the judges one round decided to discuss whether or not a maneuver performed by someone else (not me) was a zero or not. The more experienced judge convinced the other to change his score to a zero. Luckily my friend protested, and he was awarded the original score given by the judge. The only way to maintain the integrity of our contestant judging system is to have ongoing discussions about judging issues, not just assume that a seminar and a test can cure all our woes. It would seem our drive to achieve perfection in our flying would also make us strive to achieve
 perfection in our judging.

  Matt
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lance Van Nostrand 
  To: NSRCA Mailing List 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 7:52 PM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition

  Tony,

  I don't agree that the view of the pilot and judge are the same.  I have a habit, taught to me by senior judges in d6 long ago, that I do when judging.  Before sitting down I stand in the pilot station and look at the poles( best) or a landmark on the box lines.  then I sit and look again.  I think it is amazing how even a 10 ft judge setback can change the perception of the box line.  I know a lot of pilots that like to stretch the box and scrape the edges on turnarounds so its important to recognize even small parallax issues.

  BTW Matt, there were 2 judging seminars in D6. One in Temple and one in Albuquerque.  So many choices, it can be hard to choose.

  --Lance
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Matthew Frederick 
  To: NSRCA Mailing List 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 12:45 AM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition

  Thank you, Tony. My point exactly. I'm glad someone else realized that I was not asking for help on how to avoid breaking the box, but just trying to bring up a potential problem with box size judging based on simple geometry. Even though seminars are making judging more uniform, there are still people like me who just flat-out can't make a 10-hour drive to a contest just so they can attend a seminar. The website is helpful; but open, ongoing discussion on these topics will keep them fresh in our minds.

  Matt
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tony Stillman 
  To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' 
  Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 8:44 AM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition

    Matt:
This is something I have spoken about several times.  The poles are there for the JUDGES.  The lines are for the PILOTS.  If the poles cannot be place on their proper location, THEY SHOULD NOT BE USED!  This if because of the very thing that you are talking about.  If the poles are at the 150 meter out location, the difference between the view of the pilot and the judges, even if they are 25 feet behind the pilot, are virtually the same.  The closer you bring in the poles, but more of an error you will create.  

    Tony Stillman, President
  Radio South
  3702 N. Pace Blvd
  Pensacola, FL 32505
  1-800-962-7802
  www.radiosouthrc.com

---------------------------------

  From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Matthew Frederick
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:29 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition

    OK, this forum has been too quiet lately, so let's get some controversy going! This comment/question is mainly directed to Don Ramsey, but I would appreciate everyone's opinion. The good thing is, Don was at the contest where what I'm about to describe happened. What I'm talking about here is the positioning of judges behind the pilot. Under most circumstances the judges are positioned maybe 3-5 feet behind the pilot with each judge's seat placed on (or very close to) one of the 60-degree lines. Now, at a contest I attended last week the judges apparently decided it was too hot out there on the actual flight line, and they moved their chairs about 15-20 feet behind the pilot in the shade of the shed at this particular field. My question is, should this be something that is allowed since the judges' chairs define the zero line of the flight line (and moving it back this far puts spectators in danger), and also because it gives the judges an even more skewed view of the
 60-degree lines than they already have? I bring this up partly because of what Don wrote in this month's K-Factor, but also because I was gigged for busting the box by these "displaced" (in Louisiana we call them refugees) judges when in fact, I knew I was close to the edge, but since I was actually standing on the line, I knew I didn't bust it. As a pilot I should not have to adjust the size of the box that I'm permitted to fly in just so the judges can be more comfortable (granted, comfort in the heat and humidity of Louisiana is relative). I didn't bring it up at the contest because by the time it bit me, it was too late to complain. In the future, however, I think there need to be rules regarding the positioning of judges if there aren't already, and if there are rules, let's bring them to light and enforce them, and you can bet I'll refuse to fly before judges that are that far behind me. Then again, I also think the close edge of the runway should be the zero line on
 maneuvers, not the judges' chairs. I did a little (ok, a lot) of math to figure out how much box a pilot would be missing out on with the judges postitioned 15 feet behind him. Using approximated numbers from the contest in question I calculated that if the poles are 40 feet out from the pilot, and the judges are 15 feet behind the pilot, the box size at 150 meters (which is 259.81m) based on the judges' point of view is reduced by 232.61 feet (70.9 m), or 25.2%! This would have been even greater if the poles were closer in or the judges were further back.

    Matt

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