[NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

Thu Mar 1 12:07:11 AKST 2007

Don't let that get around.  We just can't have that on this list!

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: d.pappas at kodeos.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Sent: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

Just agreeing with you whole-heartedly.

Dean Pappas
Sr. Design Engineer
Kodeos Communications
111 Corporate Blvd.
South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
(908) 222-7817 phone
(908) 222-2392 fax
d.pappas at kodeos.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of
jonlowe at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 2:52 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

Ok, I give, Harrumph what???!!!  Or are you just quoting Blazing
Saddles?

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: d.pappas at kodeos.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Sent: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

Harrumph!

Dean Pappas
Sr. Design Engineer
Kodeos Communications
111 Corporate Blvd.
South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
(908) 222-7817 phone
(908) 222-2392 fax
d.pappas at kodeos.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of
jonlowe at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 11:36 AM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

I take the apporach that if I can't see an element clearly, it must not
be there.  If I find myself asking "do I give him the benefit of the
doubt?", I downgrade.

I saw some FIA pilots doing loops with integrated 4 points last year,
in which I couldn't see distinct points (I saw them slow down, but not
stop rolling), and downgraded severely because of it.  A couple asked
me about it.  I said, that if I can't see a distinct point, it must not
be there.  They fixed it in subsequent flights.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: d.pappas at kodeos.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Sent: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

Hi Fred,
There is another whole aspect to the judging world!
We always discuss WHAT to judge ... and we should.

HOW to judge gets stickier, and I have seen, over the years, a handful
of pilots score
remarkably well by utilizing flying styles that rush both maneuver
elements and the judges.

We always tend to blame ourselves if we can't see what is supposed to
be there, rather than blaming others.
That is civilized behavior: people who start out  by assuming the
opposite are called sociopaths.
Well, a good judge is maybe just a little bit sociopathic. (temporary
insanity?)
Let me go back to Matt K.'s statement of two or so days ago, when he
said that the onus is on the pilot to clearly demonstrate the good
stuff to the judge,
and not on the judge to pick out the good stuff in the midst of a poor
presentation.
You won't find this explicitly in any rule book, but common sense tells
us that a real workman
proudly displays his good work so that it can best be admired, rather
than hiding it in the middle of confusion.
If you were judging a debate, would you have to give someone the
benefit of the doubt because they mumbled? Heck NO!
The mumbler gets downgraded.
Rushing is like mumbling ...come to think of it it isn't like mumbling,
it is aero-mumbling.

Off my soapbox,
Dean

Dean Pappas
Sr. Design Engineer
Kodeos Communications
111 Corporate Blvd.
South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
(908) 222-7817 phone
(908) 222-2392 fax
d.pappas at kodeos.com

-----Original Message-----
 From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Fred Huber
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 9:46 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

I caught all kinds of flack at  judging training session for
downgrading because a VERY well known pilit did a blazing fast
4-point....

All other judge trainees said 10... I said 0... the points weren't full
stops.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Maurice
To: randy10926 at comtekmail.com ; 'NSRCA Mailing List'
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

If the points are so fast as to make it indiscernible what angle they
occurred at, then I would tend to doubt whether the point occurred at
all. Score 0. It is the pilot’s responsibility to present the maneuver
in such a manner to demonstrate that the maneuver has in fact been done
according to the rules. I sincerely doubt that a 4 point can be done in
1.25 seconds with defined stops in the roll every 90 degrees. But it
remains that if, as a judge, you cannot clearly see the relevant
elements of any maneuver being performed, then you should assume that
IT HAS NOT been performed. The elements must be demonstrated not
assumed.

Don Ramsey, can you clarify?

Gene Maurice
gene.maurice at sgmservice.com
Plano, TX
AMA 3408, NSRCA 877

--------

 From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Glenn
Hatfield
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 10:24 AM
To: nsrca-discuss list
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

Ok time to get back to our favorite list questions.

This comes from a real life judging problem.  The question is about the
4-point roll.  This what I am seeing.  A 4 point roll that takes less
than 1.25 second to complete.  You can see 4 very short pauses.  The
manever appears to be centered.  I see no change in height or coming in
or out.  It appears to be between 150M and 175M.  But the pauses are so
short that I cannot really tell if the rolls between pauses are 90
degrees.  So I cannot see what the 1 point per 15 degree down grade
should be.

What would you do?

Randy

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