[NSRCA-discussion] 2001 NATs(and scoring)

[Ron Van Putte]

I liked Charlie too.  About 15 years ago I told him that he was my  
hero.  When he asked why, I said, "You're ten years older than me and  
you're still competing, so I know that I still have at least ten  
years left."  Then he died and my clock is counting down.

Ron Van Putte

On Jun 27, 2007, at 9:56 AM, Richard Strickland wrote:

> Amen, Brother.  Charlie Reed and I were practicing a few days  
> before we were
> going to drive to Norfolk from KC together for either a Nats or  
> Masters
> Tourn. in the 80's.  We were both on 04 and a similar accident  
> occurred
> after he had been working on his plane.  I normally fly on 07, but had
> changed to 04 for the contest--he forgot and my airplane was  
> totaled.  I
> think he truly felt worse about it than I did.  We worked it out.
> On scoring, Charlie liked saying there's always "one little thing"  
> you can
> point to that lost you the (close) contest--but that mostly it was  
> losing
> concentration during a flight.  After a flight that didn't totally  
> suck, he
> would say  "Hmmm, you stayed awake during that one, eh...!?" Still  
> miss that
> guy.
>
> RS
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of
> DwayneNancy
> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 9:23 AM
> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2001 NATs
>
>
> Nope, man forgives man but remembers.  Man must repent and ask God for
> forgiveness and if man is in the right relationship with God, God will
> forget the sin except that God wipes the slate clean when the above
> conditions are met.  The slate can get written on again but only  
> for new
> transgressions.  Process will then be repeated starting with admission
> repentance.  Dwayne
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John  
> Pavlick
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:09 PM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2001 NATs
>
> I thought it was the other way around... <VBG>
>
> John Pavlick
> http://www.idseng.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DwayneNancy" <dwaynenancy at suddenlink.net>
> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2001 NATs
>
>
>> On behalf of another that "shot" someone down there's never a  
>> complete
>> forgetfulness from those included in the circle.  We as members of  
>> the
>> human
>> race can forgive but not forget.  Only God forgives AND forgets.   
>> Thank
>> goodness.  Dwayne
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave
>> Lockhart
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 8:26 PM
>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2001 NATs
>>
>> W. Hinkle,
>> I don't recognize your name or email address, so my apologies if I've
>> forgotten a prior meeting.  In any case, I don't know your sources /
>> affiliations / etc, and I hope you don't mind me offering my  
>> recollection
>> of
>> the topic you introduced.
>>
>> I've known John and his Father Peter for many years.  As a matter  
>> of fact,
>
>> I
>> made a point out of recommending John for Team JR after watching  
>> him put
>> on
>> an incredible freestyle display with a Midwest Cap at the Pocono  
>> IMAC one
>> year.  At pattern contests, I watched John move up through the  
>> classes and
>> made a point out of offering advice and coaching John and Peter.   
>> Early
>> on,
>> both John and Peter were very quiet, and very cautious about  
>> imposing upon
>> anyone's time.  Being that they were from an area without many other
>> competition flyers, and being a Father/Son Team, it was very easy  
>> for me
>> to
>> identify with them as my Dad and I had a very similar
>> experience/relationship when we started flying pattern competitively.
>>
>> That year at the NATs (2001 to recall), John was just finishing a  
>> practice
>> flight at Site 1 one evening and I had finished some repair work and
>> started
>> to test run an engine.  Yes, John and I were on the same frequency  
>> (ch 29
>> to
>> recall), and his new Smaragd (<30 flights is a good #) was about 3  
>> feet
>> high
>> on landing approach.  The plane went into an outside snap and  
>> smacked the
>> runway pretty hard (based on what I was told by several people, I  
>> only saw
>> the airplane rolling on the runway).  Immediately, the flightline was
>> buzzing, and I realized what I'd done.  I walked out to the  
>> flightline to
>> meet John and his Father.  The damage to the plane -
>>
>> - knocked off a couple of cooling fins on the OS140EFI.
>> - broke one of the plastic beams on the HydeMount.
>> - cracked the chin pan (ground off the front inch more accurately).
>> - scraped/ground about 1/4" of the bottom of the left wingtip.
>> - some stress cracks in the paint on, in front of, and behind the  
>> canopy,
>> a
>> couple of the cracks were partially into the glass/Kevlar.
>> - I think the prop was broken, the spinner was damaged, and maybe  
>> a servo
>> gear set was broke, but I'm not certain.
>>
>> John was understandably very upset about the plane, and Peter was
>> understandably not happy about seeing his son upset.  I've been  
>> flying
>> since
>> 1976 and never shot anyone down except for that day - it is not a  
>> good
>> feeling and I don't wish anyone to be on either end of such an  
>> incident.
>>
>> What I offered -
>> - I offered to complete structural repairs that night to John's  
>> plane so
>> it
>> could be flown the next day, and figure out permanent repairs/ 
>> finishing
>> after the NATs.
>> - I offered to take the Smaragd home with me, take time off work,  
>> and work
>> nonstop to restore the plane and then drive it back to them (~7 hr  
>> drive).
>> - I offered to replace the damaged EFI head with the one from my  
>> backup
>> engine (which was either NIB or had a couple break-in runs, I don't
>> specifically recall).
>> - I offered my plane to John to fly that evening and for the  
>> remainder of
>> the contest.
>> - I offered to let John take home my plane to fly until I repaired  
>> his
>> plane
>> or he had a new plane flying.
>> - I offered to give my backup plane (not yet test flown, still  
>> needing
>> equipment installation) in exchange for his damaged Smaragd.
>> - I offered to buy a new Smaragd and spend all my free time to
>> build/finish
>> it using the damaged Smaragd as the "model".
>>
>> I can't think of anything else I could have offered at that time.
>>
>> The above offerings were all discussed within hours of the incident.
>> Several very reputable flyers/builders were at hand offering  
>> additional
>> support.  That night, Peter's biggest concern was not his ability (or
>> mine)
>> to repair the model, but was the loss of a competitive edge for  
>> the next
>> day's flying, and emotional upset stemming from damage to a new  
>> model.
>> That
>> evening, all options seemed (understandably) to be unappealing to  
>> John and
>> Peter.  The last discussion I had that evening was with Peter  
>> (John was
>> also
>> there) and he stated he did not want to see me "pay" for an honest
>> mistake,
>> and was not comfortable about how to resolve the situation - it was
>> something he and John would have to further discuss when both had  
>> time to
>> cool down.  Despite the encouragement of myself and several other  
>> guys at
>> Site 1, John seemed intent on leaving for home that night (again, an
>> understandable reaction).
>>
>> The next day - I learned that John and Peter had started to drive  
>> home the
>> prior night, but came back to the site after speaking with Mike
>> McConnville
>> (Mike was very recently the Team JR Manager at that time) during the
>> drive.
>> The backup plane John had was Mike's Fashion (which had been with  
>> them
>> since
>> the start of the NATs).
>>
>> I spoke with Peter and John several times over the course of the  
>> day, and
>> the "favored" remedy changed several times.  Others that  
>> approached me
>> about
>> the issue were aware of the various options, and informed me of  
>> some new
>> ones I'd not heard of or discussed with anyone.  A bit of  
>> confusion to say
>> the least.
>>
>> The bottom line of it all was that I consistently offered to do  
>> whatever I
>> could to make things right with John and his Father.  The recently  
>> new
>> Team
>> JR Manager (Andy Pound, who held that position very briefly) was  
>> at the
>> site
>> that day.  As Andy and I had never met in person, Len Sabato, the  
>> Team JR
>> Heli Manager at that time, was with him as Len and I knew each  
>> other quite
>> well from working together at the WRAM show for many years.  I do  
>> not know
>> the exact content of the conversation(s) between Peter/John and  
>> Mike M,
>> between Mike M and Len/Andy, or between Len/Andy and Peter/John.   
>> I did
>> have
>> a private conversation with Len and Andy shortly after they  
>> arrived at the
>> site.  It was immediately clear to the three of us that some  
>> confusion
>> remained (understandable given the number of discussions I'd heard  
>> during
>> the day).  The group of us (myself, John, Peter, Len, and Andy) had a
>> private discussion to make sure we were all on the same page.
>>
>> That day, from Site 3 (on a judging break), I spoke to Al at Central
>> Hobbies
>> and "found" a replacement Smaragd kit (in very high demand at the  
>> time)
>> which was sent to Bob Noll to build (on my nickel).  I agreed to  
>> order a
>> full package of accessories for the new plane when I returned from  
>> the
>> NATs.
>> Before leaving the NATs, Peter gave me the original Smaragd  
>> (stripped of
>> all
>> hardware).  Upon my return from the NATs, I ordered (from Central)  
>> all new
>> accessories for the new plane - as that was what I had agreed to  
>> at the
>> NATs
>> - I actually ended up keeping some of the new MK linkages as Peter  
>> would
>> not
>> accept them (he retained the linkages from the original plane).  Mike
>> Stokes
>> (former Team JR Manager), the current Team Futaba Manager took the  
>> damaged
>> EFI to have it repaired no charge.
>>
>> To be 100% honest, for a little while after the 2003 NATs, the  
>> interaction
>> was a bit awkward (for myself, my Dad, Peter, and John) compared  
>> to before
>> the NATs - I think this is very understandable considering the  
>> emotion
>> during the incident and the confusion with so much "hearsay".  I  
>> feel that
>> awkwardness is long past now, and on the occasions that I see John  
>> and
>> Peter
>> (John no longer flies pattern actively in the northeast), it is  
>> always
>> friendly.
>>
>> Yup, I screwed up big and shot somebody down.  And I'm now  
>> reminded it
>> seems
>> some will never forgive an honest mistake.  What I've known for  
>> quite some
>> time is that attaining a degree of success can put a target on  
>> your back
>> and
>> draw unwarranted attacks from others.
>>
>> I'd like to respect the intent of this list and the moderators  
>> request and
>> close this aspect of the thread.  My direct email is listed below,  
>> should
>> any be so inclined.  Thanks to my many friends (old and new)  
>> who've been
>> supportive on and off list the past week.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dave Lockhart
>> DaveL322 at comcast.net
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of W.  
>> Hinkle
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:26 AM
>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Chapter-5 Going too far.
>>
>> Dave is a good pilot but character being beyond reproach is a bit  
>> of a
>> stretch. Ask John Glizellis about when Dave shot him down and  
>> haggled over
>> the price. This was to replace a brand new model with less than 30  
>> flights
>> on it at the NATS. The incident was at the NATS during practice at  
>> the AMA
>> field. We all make mistakes, but to penny pinch the guy that just  
>> cost his
>> new model part way through the Nationals. JR had to step in and  
>> forced the
>> hand. If it had not been for Dave the sponsorship threat Dave  
>> would still
>> be
>>
>> argueing the price of a new built model. Dave replaced it after some
>> debate
>> with JR. This is not character beyond reproach? Dave may be a good  
>> guy
>> just
>> don't be on the same freq. He'll tell how poor your model is built  
>> and its
>> not worth the price of a professional built kit.
>>
>> I'll agree that both parties in this fight are not angels. I'm not  
>> a fan
>> or
>> Eric's but my question to this forum
>>
>> Why is the NSRCA involved at all?
>>
>> Doesn't the NSRCA have better things to do with its time and  
>> energy than
>> lynching a judge at the request of a couple pilots that have  
>> character
>> beyond reproach?
>>
>> I feel this is another sign of the NSRCA just wasting resources,  
>> time and
>> money in the name of being the Savior of pattern flying. Beware  
>> people
>> beware. Come on. Getting two of Dave's best buddies in D1 to write a
>> program
>>
>> to damn a person that they and David hate with a passion. To me is  
>> smells
>> like old shellfish. These were the same judges who claimed in the  
>> past the
>> judge that gave the zero was the one that got it right.
>>
>> The NSRCA has no business in this arena. I find it appalling the  
>> Board
>> even
>> had this on the agenda. I also find it appalling that a ruling was  
>> made,
>> then Eric was notified of the charges and the conviction. As Eric  
>> stated,
>> no
>>
>> statistics can determine what the judge actually saw or better yet  
>> what
>> the
>> pilot actually flew. So Eric's scores were below the average for a  
>> given
>> pilot. Maybe the pilot flew below average in Eric's eyes. This is  
>> why the
>> NATS uses more than one judge. This is a fact of life. This looks  
>> very one
>> sided by the NSRCA.
>>
>> The NSRCA has no place in this squabble.
>>
>>
>>> From: "John Pavlick" <jpavlick at idseng.com>
>>> Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Chapter-5 Going too far.
>>> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 01:27:00 -0400
>>>
>>> Len,
>>>  All of the people involved were from D1 - I thought the good ol'  
>>> boys
>>> were in D2 and D3! <LOL>
>>>
>>> John Pavlick
>>> http://www.idseng.com
>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>   From: Leonard Rudy
>>>   To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>   Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:47 PM
>>>   Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Chapter-5 Going too far.
>>>
>>>
>>>   John,
>>>
>>>        The conflict may have blossomed like a Hockey Game  
>>> Conflict, but
>>> in
>>
>>> the NHL
>>>   those "with the power" hear both sides and let each side  
>>> present their
>>> case before
>>>   the powers to be assign penalties.  After the penalties are  
>>> imposed,
>>> the
>>
>>> player or
>>>   individual still has the right to appeal the decision.
>>>        You say Eric should take whatever the powers to be want  
>>> and don't
>>> make any
>>>   noise or waves.
>>>        This is a clear message to others who will be judging at  
>>> meets in
>>> the future.  DO NOT GIVE THE GOOD OLD BOYS GROUP any low or bad  
>>> scores or
>>> you may be on the receiving end of some form of penalty that you  
>>> will not
>>> like.
>>>
>>>   Len Rudy
>>>     "Life is easier if you learn to plow around the stumps" or in  
>>> other
>>> words, do not
>>>   hand out low scores to the Good Old Boys or you will pay dearly  
>>> for it
>>> one way or
>>>   another.
>>>
>>>   Fred Huber <fhhuber at clearwire.net> wrote:
>>>     The penalty does not appear appropriate...
>>>
>>>     It also sounds like it was not applied in a manner consistant  
>>> with
>>> the
>>
>>> rules system.
>>>       ----- Original Message -----
>>>       From: John Ferrell
>>>       To: Don Ramsey ; NSRCA Mailing List
>>>       Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:12 AM
>>>       Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Chapter-5 Going too far.
>>>
>>>
>>>       I have the good fortune to not be involved in this dispute.  
>>> I am
>>> only aware of the conflict.
>>>
>>>       Not being very good at staying out of arguments, I offer the
>>> following observations:
>>>       A heated difference of opinions occurred.
>>>       Every one involved is considered a valuable asset to the  
>>> Pattern
>>> Game.
>>>       Things were said that should not have been said.
>>>       Every one thinks they are right.
>>>       There was probably at least one (or may be several) bad call 
>>> (s) by
>>> some one.
>>>
>>>       The conflict blossomed like a Hockey Game Conflict and the net
>>> result was those with the power and responsibility treated it like a
>>> Hockey
>>
>>> Game Conflict! A serious "time out" was assigned to the  
>>> individual at the
>>> focal point of the conflict. It was their duty to put the problem  
>>> on ice.
>>>
>>>       The expectations of the rest of us who value the game and its
>>> players is that right or wrong the referee's call must be  
>>> honored. The
>>> referee has the power to impose further penalties if the individual
>>> continues to make waves. Right or wrong, this is the was disputes  
>>> are
>>> handled in the world of competition.
>>>
>>>       If the individual was drawn into the conflict by goading it is
>>> still
>>
>>> he who gets the penalty.
>>>
>>>       Conflict resolution is not something that is natural to the  
>>> human
>>> condition. Conflict is.
>>>
>>>       Eric needs to take the penalty and get on with things.Those in
>>> power
>>
>>> need to accept that the penalty has been applied and to continue  
>>> the game.
>>>
>>>       WE ALL need to be aware that we either play nice or get  
>>> sent to the
>>> showers!
>>>
>>>       Another factor to consider is that the higher profile one  
>>> achieves
>>> in this sport the greater the need to hold that individual to higher
>>> standards.
>>>       Eric is certainly a "high profile" player.
>>>
>>>       John Ferrell    W8CCW
>>>       "Life is easier if you learn to plow
>>>              around the stumps"
>>>       http://DixieNC.US
>>>
>>>         ----- Original Message -----
>>>         From: Don Ramsey
>>>         To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>         Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 7:32 PM
>>>         Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Chapter-5 Going too far.
>>>
>>>
>>>         I would like to thank Eric for the nice complement in his
>>> comment,
>>
>>> "To circumvent this conflict of interest problem and to keep the  
>>> Nationals
>>> above reproach, I steeped out of line and asked Don Ramsey to
>>> independently
>>
>>> choose the judges, Dave could not refuse this method, but I will  
>>> tell you
>>> that he got extremely mad at me for doing it."
>>>
>>>         I must respond that for good or bad I've been choosing  
>>> the finals
>>> judges for many years.  I started that process when Jeff Hill was  
>>> Event
>>> Director.  It must also be stated that I've never had any  
>>> pressure of any
>>> kind from contest management regarding who I choose to judge.  I  
>>> try to
>>> pick the best candidates and rotate those so no single judge can  
>>> influence
>>> the outcome extradionarly.
>>>
>>>         Don
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>> ------
>>>
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