[NSRCA-discussion] 2001 NATs

[DwayneNancy]

Nope, man forgives man but remembers.  Man must repent and ask God for
forgiveness and if man is in the right relationship with God, God will
forget the sin except that God wipes the slate clean when the above
conditions are met.  The slate can get written on again but only for new
transgressions.  Process will then be repeated starting with admission
repentance.  Dwayne

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Pavlick
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:09 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2001 NATs

I thought it was the other way around... <VBG>

John Pavlick
http://www.idseng.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "DwayneNancy" <dwaynenancy at suddenlink.net>
To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2001 NATs


> On behalf of another that "shot" someone down there's never a complete
> forgetfulness from those included in the circle.  We as members of the 
> human
> race can forgive but not forget.  Only God forgives AND forgets.  Thank
> goodness.  Dwayne
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave 
> Lockhart
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 8:26 PM
> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2001 NATs
>
> W. Hinkle,
> I don't recognize your name or email address, so my apologies if I've
> forgotten a prior meeting.  In any case, I don't know your sources /
> affiliations / etc, and I hope you don't mind me offering my recollection 
> of
> the topic you introduced.
>
> I've known John and his Father Peter for many years.  As a matter of fact,

> I
> made a point out of recommending John for Team JR after watching him put 
> on
> an incredible freestyle display with a Midwest Cap at the Pocono IMAC one
> year.  At pattern contests, I watched John move up through the classes and
> made a point out of offering advice and coaching John and Peter.  Early 
> on,
> both John and Peter were very quiet, and very cautious about imposing upon
> anyone's time.  Being that they were from an area without many other
> competition flyers, and being a Father/Son Team, it was very easy for me 
> to
> identify with them as my Dad and I had a very similar
> experience/relationship when we started flying pattern competitively.
>
> That year at the NATs (2001 to recall), John was just finishing a practice
> flight at Site 1 one evening and I had finished some repair work and 
> started
> to test run an engine.  Yes, John and I were on the same frequency (ch 29 
> to
> recall), and his new Smaragd (<30 flights is a good #) was about 3 feet 
> high
> on landing approach.  The plane went into an outside snap and smacked the
> runway pretty hard (based on what I was told by several people, I only saw
> the airplane rolling on the runway).  Immediately, the flightline was
> buzzing, and I realized what I'd done.  I walked out to the flightline to
> meet John and his Father.  The damage to the plane -
>
> - knocked off a couple of cooling fins on the OS140EFI.
> - broke one of the plastic beams on the HydeMount.
> - cracked the chin pan (ground off the front inch more accurately).
> - scraped/ground about 1/4" of the bottom of the left wingtip.
> - some stress cracks in the paint on, in front of, and behind the canopy, 
> a
> couple of the cracks were partially into the glass/Kevlar.
> - I think the prop was broken, the spinner was damaged, and maybe a servo
> gear set was broke, but I'm not certain.
>
> John was understandably very upset about the plane, and Peter was
> understandably not happy about seeing his son upset.  I've been flying 
> since
> 1976 and never shot anyone down except for that day - it is not a good
> feeling and I don't wish anyone to be on either end of such an incident.
>
> What I offered -
> - I offered to complete structural repairs that night to John's plane so 
> it
> could be flown the next day, and figure out permanent repairs/finishing
> after the NATs.
> - I offered to take the Smaragd home with me, take time off work, and work
> nonstop to restore the plane and then drive it back to them (~7 hr drive).
> - I offered to replace the damaged EFI head with the one from my backup
> engine (which was either NIB or had a couple break-in runs, I don't
> specifically recall).
> - I offered my plane to John to fly that evening and for the remainder of
> the contest.
> - I offered to let John take home my plane to fly until I repaired his 
> plane
> or he had a new plane flying.
> - I offered to give my backup plane (not yet test flown, still needing
> equipment installation) in exchange for his damaged Smaragd.
> - I offered to buy a new Smaragd and spend all my free time to 
> build/finish
> it using the damaged Smaragd as the "model".
>
> I can't think of anything else I could have offered at that time.
>
> The above offerings were all discussed within hours of the incident.
> Several very reputable flyers/builders were at hand offering additional
> support.  That night, Peter's biggest concern was not his ability (or 
> mine)
> to repair the model, but was the loss of a competitive edge for the next
> day's flying, and emotional upset stemming from damage to a new model. 
> That
> evening, all options seemed (understandably) to be unappealing to John and
> Peter.  The last discussion I had that evening was with Peter (John was 
> also
> there) and he stated he did not want to see me "pay" for an honest 
> mistake,
> and was not comfortable about how to resolve the situation - it was
> something he and John would have to further discuss when both had time to
> cool down.  Despite the encouragement of myself and several other guys at
> Site 1, John seemed intent on leaving for home that night (again, an
> understandable reaction).
>
> The next day - I learned that John and Peter had started to drive home the
> prior night, but came back to the site after speaking with Mike 
> McConnville
> (Mike was very recently the Team JR Manager at that time) during the 
> drive.
> The backup plane John had was Mike's Fashion (which had been with them 
> since
> the start of the NATs).
>
> I spoke with Peter and John several times over the course of the day, and
> the "favored" remedy changed several times.  Others that approached me 
> about
> the issue were aware of the various options, and informed me of some new
> ones I'd not heard of or discussed with anyone.  A bit of confusion to say
> the least.
>
> The bottom line of it all was that I consistently offered to do whatever I
> could to make things right with John and his Father.  The recently new 
> Team
> JR Manager (Andy Pound, who held that position very briefly) was at the 
> site
> that day.  As Andy and I had never met in person, Len Sabato, the Team JR
> Heli Manager at that time, was with him as Len and I knew each other quite
> well from working together at the WRAM show for many years.  I do not know
> the exact content of the conversation(s) between Peter/John and Mike M,
> between Mike M and Len/Andy, or between Len/Andy and Peter/John.  I did 
> have
> a private conversation with Len and Andy shortly after they arrived at the
> site.  It was immediately clear to the three of us that some confusion
> remained (understandable given the number of discussions I'd heard during
> the day).  The group of us (myself, John, Peter, Len, and Andy) had a
> private discussion to make sure we were all on the same page.
>
> That day, from Site 3 (on a judging break), I spoke to Al at Central 
> Hobbies
> and "found" a replacement Smaragd kit (in very high demand at the time)
> which was sent to Bob Noll to build (on my nickel).  I agreed to order a
> full package of accessories for the new plane when I returned from the 
> NATs.
> Before leaving the NATs, Peter gave me the original Smaragd (stripped of 
> all
> hardware).  Upon my return from the NATs, I ordered (from Central) all new
> accessories for the new plane - as that was what I had agreed to at the 
> NATs
> - I actually ended up keeping some of the new MK linkages as Peter would 
> not
> accept them (he retained the linkages from the original plane).  Mike 
> Stokes
> (former Team JR Manager), the current Team Futaba Manager took the damaged
> EFI to have it repaired no charge.
>
> To be 100% honest, for a little while after the 2003 NATs, the interaction
> was a bit awkward (for myself, my Dad, Peter, and John) compared to before
> the NATs - I think this is very understandable considering the emotion
> during the incident and the confusion with so much "hearsay".  I feel that
> awkwardness is long past now, and on the occasions that I see John and 
> Peter
> (John no longer flies pattern actively in the northeast), it is always
> friendly.
>
> Yup, I screwed up big and shot somebody down.  And I'm now reminded it 
> seems
> some will never forgive an honest mistake.  What I've known for quite some
> time is that attaining a degree of success can put a target on your back 
> and
> draw unwarranted attacks from others.
>
> I'd like to respect the intent of this list and the moderators request and
> close this aspect of the thread.  My direct email is listed below, should
> any be so inclined.  Thanks to my many friends (old and new) who've been
> supportive on and off list the past week.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave Lockhart
> DaveL322 at comcast.net
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of W. Hinkle
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:26 AM
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Chapter-5 Going too far.
>
> Dave is a good pilot but character being beyond reproach is a bit of a
> stretch. Ask John Glizellis about when Dave shot him down and haggled over
> the price. This was to replace a brand new model with less than 30 flights
> on it at the NATS. The incident was at the NATS during practice at the AMA
> field. We all make mistakes, but to penny pinch the guy that just cost his
> new model part way through the Nationals. JR had to step in and forced the
> hand. If it had not been for Dave the sponsorship threat Dave would still 
> be
>
> argueing the price of a new built model. Dave replaced it after some 
> debate
> with JR. This is not character beyond reproach? Dave may be a good guy 
> just
> don't be on the same freq. He'll tell how poor your model is built and its
> not worth the price of a professional built kit.
>
> I'll agree that both parties in this fight are not angels. I'm not a fan 
> or
> Eric's but my question to this forum
>
> Why is the NSRCA involved at all?
>
> Doesn't the NSRCA have better things to do with its time and energy than
> lynching a judge at the request of a couple pilots that have character
> beyond reproach?
>
> I feel this is another sign of the NSRCA just wasting resources, time and
> money in the name of being the Savior of pattern flying. Beware people
> beware. Come on. Getting two of Dave's best buddies in D1 to write a 
> program
>
> to damn a person that they and David hate with a passion. To me is smells
> like old shellfish. These were the same judges who claimed in the past the
> judge that gave the zero was the one that got it right.
>
> The NSRCA has no business in this arena. I find it appalling the Board 
> even
> had this on the agenda. I also find it appalling that a ruling was made,
> then Eric was notified of the charges and the conviction. As Eric stated, 
> no
>
> statistics can determine what the judge actually saw or better yet what 
> the
> pilot actually flew. So Eric's scores were below the average for a given
> pilot. Maybe the pilot flew below average in Eric's eyes. This is why the
> NATS uses more than one judge. This is a fact of life. This looks very one
> sided by the NSRCA.
>
> The NSRCA has no place in this squabble.
>
>
>>From: "John Pavlick" <jpavlick at idseng.com>
>>Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Chapter-5 Going too far.
>>Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 01:27:00 -0400
>>
>>Len,
>>  All of the people involved were from D1 - I thought the good ol' boys
>>were in D2 and D3! <LOL>
>>
>>John Pavlick
>>http://www.idseng.com
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Leonard Rudy
>>   To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>   Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:47 PM
>>   Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Chapter-5 Going too far.
>>
>>
>>   John,
>>
>>        The conflict may have blossomed like a Hockey Game Conflict, but 
>> in
>
>>the NHL
>>   those "with the power" hear both sides and let each side present their
>>case before
>>   the powers to be assign penalties.  After the penalties are imposed, 
>> the
>
>>player or
>>   individual still has the right to appeal the decision.
>>        You say Eric should take whatever the powers to be want and don't
>>make any
>>   noise or waves.
>>        This is a clear message to others who will be judging at meets in
>>the future.  DO NOT GIVE THE GOOD OLD BOYS GROUP any low or bad scores or
>>you may be on the receiving end of some form of penalty that you will not
>>like.
>>
>>   Len Rudy
>>     "Life is easier if you learn to plow around the stumps" or in other
>>words, do not
>>   hand out low scores to the Good Old Boys or you will pay dearly for it
>>one way or
>>   another.
>>
>>   Fred Huber <fhhuber at clearwire.net> wrote:
>>     The penalty does not appear appropriate...
>>
>>     It also sounds like it was not applied in a manner consistant with 
>> the
>
>>rules system.
>>       ----- Original Message -----
>>       From: John Ferrell
>>       To: Don Ramsey ; NSRCA Mailing List
>>       Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:12 AM
>>       Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Chapter-5 Going too far.
>>
>>
>>       I have the good fortune to not be involved in this dispute. I am
>>only aware of the conflict.
>>
>>       Not being very good at staying out of arguments, I offer the
>>following observations:
>>       A heated difference of opinions occurred.
>>       Every one involved is considered a valuable asset to the Pattern
>>Game.
>>       Things were said that should not have been said.
>>       Every one thinks they are right.
>>       There was probably at least one (or may be several) bad call(s) by
>>some one.
>>
>>       The conflict blossomed like a Hockey Game Conflict and the net
>>result was those with the power and responsibility treated it like a 
>>Hockey
>
>>Game Conflict! A serious "time out" was assigned to the individual at the
>>focal point of the conflict. It was their duty to put the problem on ice.
>>
>>       The expectations of the rest of us who value the game and its
>>players is that right or wrong the referee's call must be honored. The
>>referee has the power to impose further penalties if the individual
>>continues to make waves. Right or wrong, this is the was disputes are
>>handled in the world of competition.
>>
>>       If the individual was drawn into the conflict by goading it is 
>> still
>
>>he who gets the penalty.
>>
>>       Conflict resolution is not something that is natural to the human
>>condition. Conflict is.
>>
>>       Eric needs to take the penalty and get on with things.Those in 
>> power
>
>>need to accept that the penalty has been applied and to continue the game.
>>
>>       WE ALL need to be aware that we either play nice or get sent to the
>>showers!
>>
>>       Another factor to consider is that the higher profile one achieves
>>in this sport the greater the need to hold that individual to higher
>>standards.
>>       Eric is certainly a "high profile" player.
>>
>>       John Ferrell    W8CCW
>>       "Life is easier if you learn to plow
>>              around the stumps"
>>       http://DixieNC.US
>>
>>         ----- Original Message -----
>>         From: Don Ramsey
>>         To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>         Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 7:32 PM
>>         Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Chapter-5 Going too far.
>>
>>
>>         I would like to thank Eric for the nice complement in his 
>> comment,
>
>>"To circumvent this conflict of interest problem and to keep the Nationals
>>above reproach, I steeped out of line and asked Don Ramsey to 
>>independently
>
>>choose the judges, Dave could not refuse this method, but I will tell you
>>that he got extremely mad at me for doing it."
>>
>>         I must respond that for good or bad I've been choosing the finals
>>judges for many years.  I started that process when Jeff Hill was Event
>>Director.  It must also be stated that I've never had any pressure of any
>>kind from contest management regarding who I choose to judge.  I try to
>>pick the best candidates and rotate those so no single judge can influence
>>the outcome extradionarly.
>>
>>         Don
>>
>>
>>
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