[NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits
Robert L. Beaubien
rbeaubien at koolsoft.com
Mon Jun 25 11:01:01 AKDT 2007
A gallon every 5 weeks??!? I'll bet there are guys that wish it was
only a gallon every 5 weeks... J
- Robert Beaubien
- Sr. Software Architect
- Kool Software
- (623)486-9987
-
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of R. LIPRIE
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 11:47 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits
Electric is cheaper than gas in the long run , because you don't have to
by a gallon of fuel every 5 weeks.
Matt L
----- Original Message -----
From: James Oddino <mailto:joddino at socal.rr.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits
I have a feeling that electric will prove less expensive than
glow in the long run. It is already an advantage because you spend your
time flying and not fixing. My Impact has 237 flights and looks and
operates as good as new with the exception of the gear box. The
outrunner in my new Abbra should fix that.
The new plane is about a pound lighter and performs much better.
I suspect the glow airplanes would also fly better if they were lighter.
Bottom line; build a plane that is under 11 pounds read to fly
and you will be glad you did. You will all agree that the electric has
the advantage if that is your goal.
Jim O
On Jun 25, 2007, at 10:45 AM, Verne Koester wrote:
Having flown both glow and now electric. I agree with Ron to a
point. The batteries ARE the fuel in an electric plane and so weighing
them with the batteries (not counting the Rx battery) is almost
comparable to weighing a glow motor plane with fuel. I said almost
because the weight of an electric motor and speed controller is
considerably less than the weight of a glow motor, muffler, and servo. I
consider myself a reasonably light builder, but have had to be
extraordinarily careful to keep my electric planes within the weight
limits, to the point of not having features I'd prefer to have for
safety such as an on/off switch and arming plug. I know of one electric
flier that folded up his fuse in a snap because the construction was
inadequate, also not safe. Can they be built light enough? Yep, I've
done it twice, but there are compromises and not all are good. I also
agree with Dave Lockhart's assessment that weighing electric planes
without the batteries will have unintended consequences and new planes
will be developed for/by the exceptionally skilled. Somewhere in all of
this, there's probably a reasonable solution, but none are on the table
and most seem to think that if an increase is allowed now, it can never
be taken back as technology develops. Perhaps, but I don't see the logic
if the adjustment is written properly. In truth, I'm on the fence on
this issue, but I'd sure like a little cushion to beef things up a
little and add that arming plug. BTW, I've found no performance
advantage in electric, just reliability and less mess. Fact is, I was
winning a lot more with glow.
Verne
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Van Putte <mailto:vanputte at cox.net>
To: NSRCA Mailing List
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits
No. Most of the people who can "make weight" are
extremely talented in building a light airplane for battery power (or
can afford to pay a talented builder) and have the money to spend to buy
the lightest equipment (motor/batteries/ESC). I don't think I'm
denigrating the pilot on a limited budget when I say that. The result
is, those who have the money can compete with electric-powered
airplanes, but most of the others can't. The factor causing most of the
money discrepancy is the unfair application of the weight limit by
requiring electric-powered airplanes to be weighed with the batteries,
but allowing glow-powered airplanes to be weighed with an empty fuel
tank.
Ron Van Putte
On Jun 25, 2007, at 8:48 AM, Del K. Rykert wrote:
Ron..
Is your message that glow is at a disadvantage?
Cost and what some can afford has always and will always be an issue in
this sport. Back when everyone else switched to full 2 meter planes and
I stuck with 60 size 2 cycle I could easily see the disadvantage I was
at except in calm air. If that is where electric is taking the sport
then that is another nail in the proverbial coffin for the sport.
Del
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Van Putte <mailto:vanputte at cox.net>
To: NSRCA Mailing List
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight
Limits
I have a built-in problem with someone being
able to "buy" a win. It comes from when I entered the Soapbox Derby as
a 14 year old. In my first race, I was beaten buy a kid who eventually
won the whole race. My dad could afford to buy me an official set of
wheels, but no more. The father of the kid who beat me bought ten sets
of wheels and they were able to select the four best wheels. If a rule
enables only the "rich" to compete successfully with an e-powered
airplane, it gets my hackles up.
Ron Van Putte
On Jun 22, 2007, at 9:54 AM, Dave Lockhart
wrote:
Ron / John,
Point taken. And no offense, but so what? As
a kid, I was never the biggest guy on the playing fields......but I
loved to play anyway and never asked for a head start, an extra kick, or
an extra swing. I'm still not the "biggest kid", and some of the most
fun I've had was whooping up on the "superior" equipment back when I
couldn't afford the latest greatest Skippy Propnut TurboZoot 9000 XL
MkVII Touring edition limited SE with the add-ons.
The average guy can't afford many
things.....like the Naruke edition Astral flown by McMurtry at the 2006
NATs? Or even the Oxai version.....or even the Xtreme version.
Your argument could be extended to many
things.......2C vs 4C (as if you could get a consensus on which is
"better")...........analog vs digital servos.............guys flying
electrics w/ NIcd or Nimh because they can't afford lipos.........and on
an on.
Pattern competition is a competitive event with
some broad limits (weight, size, noise). You have your choices, you
pick what is most competitive for your available budget, you practice,
you compete. You win, or you lose.
If you / John don't think electric is
competitive under the current rules, fly glow.
Others think electric is competitive and are
flying electric.
Again, electric is in its infancy......make a
rule now that favors electrics and you will ensure unquestionable
electric dominance in the very near future. Just remember the 120
4C....it was to allow parity between a piped 60 2C and allow a quieter
powerplant. Very shortsighted rule as the 120 4C became dominant
rapidly. Clearly the gap (if there is one) between electric and glow
today is nothing like the 2C / 4C gap was in ~1988 (when 2C 60s
dominated 120 4Cs) or now (when a 120 4C dominates 60 2Cs).
By definition, the average guy will never be
able to afford the highest level setup. And that has never prevented
something like a humble wooden Focus from winning the NATs.....at any
level.
Regards,
Dave
________________________________
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Van
Putte
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:27 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight
Limits
It is said that you can't understand a person's
problems until you've walked a mile in their shoes. John and I didn't
understand what the problems were regarding making weight with
electric-powered airplanes until he decided to compete with one. I am
still competing with a glow-powered Focus.
John's airplane is under 5 Kg, but not by much.
Due to an extensive weight-saving building job on his Black Magic by
Mike Hester and John's careful selection and installation of radio,
batteries, ESC, prop, motor, spinner, et al, his airplane is OK with
weight, even in the kind of winds we often see at the Nats. He's
thinking about the guys who can't afford as much $$$ as he has invested
in his setup. The average guy probably can't build an electric-powered 2
meter airplane that makes weight and is competitive with the kind of
budget required for a glow-powered version of the same airplane.
Ron Van Putte
The learning curve is very steep.
On Jun 21, 2007, at 11:54 PM, Keith Black wrote:
I fly electric but still would be against this
proposal.
John F. makes some good points in his
justification, however, I simply think that Dave's counter points out
"weigh" John's points.
I think if you read Dave's post with an open
mind and not a pre-conceived "position" you feel you have to protect
you'll find his logic very compelling.
BTW, I find this change of heart by you and John
quite amusing. This is probably unfair but it almost sounds as if one of
you can't get your new e-plane to make weight with the current rules.
I'm sure that's not true, but from the outside it certainly appears that
way.
I hope the real reason for "floating" this idea
was to get people opinions. If so I'm beginning to see a trend.
Keith Black
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Van Putte
<mailto:vanputte at cox.net>
To: NSRCA Mailing List
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane
Weight Limits
I was also not aware that glow-powered
airplanes needed the handicap they already have. I agree that, with
innovative design and $$$, electric-powered airplanes can compete with
glow-powered airplanes. The ones who suffer from the weight inequity are
those who can't afford the $$$ to overcome the weight inequity.
Ron Van Putte
On Jun 21, 2007, at 6:59 PM, John
Ferrell wrote:
I did not realize that the Electrics
were in need of a handicap. They seem to be doing just fine against the
recips under current rules.
If you really think they need a little
help by all means give them a rule book boost!
John Ferrell W8CCW
"Life is easier if you learn to plow
around the stumps"
http://DixieNC.US
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Van Putte
<mailto:vanputte at cox.net>
To: NSRCA Mailing List
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 2:44 PM
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane
Weight Limits
I just got this response from John
Fuqua.
Ron Van Putte
The guys are missing the point. It is
not about what can be achieved on weight. It is what is permitted by the
rules. They are not arguing the logic of what the rules allow (in most
cases) but examples of what has been achieved. Please make that point.
John
From: Ron Van Putte
[mailto:vanputte at cox.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 1:18 PM
To: Fuqua John D Mr CTR USAF 697 ARSF/EN
Subject: Fwd: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd:
Electric Weight Proposal Logic and Rationale
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