[NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits

Mon Jun 25 09:55:13 AKDT 2007

"Claiming"?!?!?!?!?  EEEEEEEKKKKK!!!!!!!!

So would that mean if (for example) Bryan Hebert won, somebody would be able 
to claim his Shinden? I'm thinking automatic weapons might be in order =)

-Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jon Lowe" <jonlowe at aol.com>
To: <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits

> Ron,
> You are making an assertion that it is "unfair".  IMHO, electrics are
> "unfair" because they don't have a weight change between takeoff and
> landing, no CG shift, and they are lighter overall at takeoff.  A glow
> planes fuel is contained in its tank.  An electric airplane's "tank" is
> its battery. Its fuel weighs nothing, so it has an advantage.
>
> I guess we need to give handicaps to those pilots who don't fly Oxai or
> Naruke ariplanes, who don't have 14mz's and 10x's, and who don't fly
> EFI OS engines or 1.70DZ's because they can't afford to do so.  Same
> thing.  Someone will ALWAYS outspend someone else, unless we institute
> claiming in pattern.  Now THERE would be a concept!
>
> Jon Lowe
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Van Putte <vanputte at cox.net>
> To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:11 pm
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits
>
>
> No. Most of the people who can "make weight" are extremely talented in
> building a light airplane for battery power (or can afford to pay a
> talented builder) and have the money to spend to buy the lightest
> equipment (motor/batteries/ESC). I don't think I'm denigrating the
> pilot on a limited budget when I say that. The result is, those who
> have the money can compete with electric-powered airplanes, but most of
> the others can't. The factor causing most of the money discrepancy is
> the unfair application of the weight limit by requiring
> electric-powered airplanes to be weighed with the batteries, but
> allowing glow-powered airplanes to be weighed with an empty fuel tank.
>
>
>
> Ron Van Putte
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 25, 2007, at 8:48 AM, Del K. Rykert wrote:
>
>
>
> Ron..
>
> Is your message that glow is at a disadvantage? Cost and what some
> can afford has always and will always be an issue in this sport. Back
> when everyone else switched to full 2 meter planes and I stuck with 60
> size 2 cycle I could easily see the disadvantage I was at except in
> calm air. If that is where electric is taking the sport then that is
> another nail in the proverbial coffin for the sport.
>
>
>
> Del
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Ron Van Putte
>
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>
> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 12:00 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits
>
>
>
> I have a built-in problem with someone being able to "buy" a win. It
> comes from when I entered the Soapbox Derby as a 14 year old. In my
> first race, I was beaten buy a kid who eventually won the whole race.
> My dad could afford to buy me an official set of wheels, but no more.
> The father of the kid who beat me bought ten sets of wheels and they
> were able to select the four best wheels. If a rule enables only the
> "rich" to compete successfully with an e-powered airplane, it gets my
> hackles up.
>
>
>
> Ron Van Putte
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 22, 2007, at 9:54 AM, Dave Lockhart wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Ron / John,
>
> Point taken. And no offense, but so what? As a kid, I was never the
> biggest guy on the playing fields……but I loved to play anyway and never
> asked for a head start, an extra kick, or an extra swing. I’m still
> not the “biggest kid”, and some of the most fun I’ve had was whooping
> up on the “superior” equipment back when I couldn’t afford the latest
> greatest Skippy Propnut TurboZoot 9000 XL MkVII Touring edition limited
> SE with the add-ons.
>
> The average guy can’t afford many things…..like the Naruke edition
> Astral flown by McMurtry at the 2006 NATs? Or even the Oxai
> version…..or even the Xtreme version.
>
> Your argument could be extended to many things…….2C vs 4C (as if you
> could get a consensus on which is “better”)………..analog vs digital
> servos………….guys flying electrics w/ NIcd or Nimh because they can’t
> afford lipos………and on an on.
>
> Pattern competition is a competitive event with some broad limits
> (weight, size, noise). You have your choices, you pick what is most
> competitive for your available budget, you practice, you compete. You
> win, or you lose.
>
> If you / John don’t think electric is competitive under the current
> rules, fly glow.
>
> Others think electric is competitive and are flying electric.
>
> Again, electric is in its infancy……make a rule now that favors
> electrics and you will ensure unquestionable electric dominance in the
> very near future. Just remember the 120 4C….it was to allow parity
> between a piped 60 2C and allow a quieter powerplant. Very
> shortsighted rule as the 120 4C became dominant rapidly. Clearly the
> gap (if there is one) between electric and glow today is nothing like
> the 2C / 4C gap was in ~1988 (when 2C 60s dominated 120 4Cs) or now
> (when a 120 4C dominates 60 2Cs).
>
> By definition, the average guy will never be able to afford the highest
> level setup. And that has never prevented something like a humble
> wooden Focus from winning the NATs…..at any level.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ron Van
> Putte
> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:27 AM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits
>
>
>
>
> It is said that you can't understand a person's problems until you've
> walked a mile in their shoes. John and I didn't understand what the
> problems were regarding making weight with electric-powered airplanes
> until he decided to compete with one. I am still competing with a
> glow-powered Focus.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> John's airplane is under 5 Kg, but not by much. Due to an extensive
> weight-saving building job on his Black Magic by Mike Hester and John's
> careful selection and installation of radio, batteries, ESC, prop,
> motor, spinner, et al, his airplane is OK with weight, even in the kind
> of winds we often see at the Nats. He's thinking about the guys who
> can't afford as much $$$ as he has invested in his setup. The average
> guy probably can't build an electric-powered 2 meter airplane that
> makes weight and is competitive with the kind of budget required for a
> glow-powered version of the same airplane.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ron Van Putte
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The learning curve is very steep.
>
>
>
> On Jun 21, 2007, at 11:54 PM, Keith Black wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I fly electric but still would be against this proposal.
>
>
>
> John F. makes some good points in his justification, however, I simply
> think that Dave's counter points out "weigh" John's points.
>
>
>
>
> I think if you read Dave's post with an open mind and not a
> pre-conceived "position" you feel you have to protect you'll find his
> logic very compelling.
>
>
>
> BTW, I find this change of heart by you and John quite amusing. This is
> probably unfair but it almost sounds as if one of you can't get your
> new e-plane to make weight with the current rules. I'm sure that's not
> true, but from the outside it certainly appears that way.
>
>
>
>
> I hope the real reason for "floating" this idea was to get people
> opinions. If so I'm beginning to see a trend.
>
>
>
> Keith Black
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
>
>
> From: Ron Van Putte
>
>
>
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>
>
>
> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 7:38 PM
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I was also not aware that glow-powered airplanes needed the handicap
> they already have. I agree that, with innovative design and $$$,
> electric-powered airplanes can compete with glow-powered airplanes. The
> ones who suffer from the weight inequity are those who can't afford the
> $$$ to overcome the weight inequity.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ron Van Putte
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 21, 2007, at 6:59 PM, John Ferrell wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I did not realize that the Electrics were in need of a handicap. They
> seem to be doing just fine against the recips under current rules.
>
>
>
> If you really think they need a little help by all means give them a
> rule book boost!
>
>
>
> John Ferrell W8CCW
> "Life is easier if you learn to plow
> around the stumps"
> http://DixieNC.US
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
>
> From: Ron Van Putte
>
>
>
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>
>
>
> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 2:44 PM
>
>
>
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I just got this response from John Fuqua.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ron Van Putte
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The guys are missing the point. It is not about what can be achieved on
> weight. It is what is permitted by the rules. They are not arguing the
> logic of what the rules allow (in most cases) but examples of what has
> been achieved. Please make that point.
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Ron Van Putte [mailto:vanputte at cox.net]
>
>
>
> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 1:18 PM
>
>
>
> To: Fuqua John D Mr CTR USAF 697 ARSF/EN
>
>
>
> Subject: Fwd: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Electric Weight Proposal Logic
> and Rationale
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>
>
>
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>
>
>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>
>
>
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>
>
>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
>
> =
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free
> from AOL at AOL.com.
> =0
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 