[NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits

[Mike Hester]

That's too general of a statement. This doesn't have anything to do with 
whether or not electrics are viable, they are. This is about details.

I watched people follow EXACTLY in the footsteps of the successful....and 
burn thier stuff to the ground in bad conditions. I have a lot invested in 
these planes as far as time and mental energy, and I can't put on a 
blindfold to an issue. I'd much rather try and solve the issue. Preferrably 
without a rule change.

-Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nat Penton" <natpenton at centurytel.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits


> If nearly 50% of West Coast competitors are electric there must be a
> conflict in perception with the EAST Coast. The Gulf Coast ( if I may )
> loves thier electrics and sees no need for a rule change.
>
> Most tribulations with electric derived from not following in the 
> footsteps
> of the successful.        Nat
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Hester" <kerlock at comcast.net>
> To: <chad at f3acanada.org>; "NSRCA Mailing List"
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 4:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits
>
>
>> LOL
>>
>> Seriously that's real. I know that some people say they don't have any
>> problems with speed/wind, but my eyes tell me different. I recently
>> watched
>> an avid electric competitor smoke 2 sets of packs, back to back, and as a
>> result will not compete in the 2007 Nats without a YS powered plane. For
>> this person to make this kind of move, it's like one of the signs of the
>> apocalypse. I watched the masters Nats finals last year (from the judges
>> chair) and the lack of penetration was extremely evident in the head 
>> wind.
>> I
>> was not on the FAI line so I can't say one way or another how things went
>> there. But my eyes work, and I know what I have seen, there and other
>> places
>> as well. When you have to bury the stick just  to maintain any forward
>> motion whatsoever, you will be hard pressed by the end of the flight.
>> Simple
>> physics.
>>
>> The problem exists, however I'll be the very first to admit it comes down
>> to
>> mostly set up, equipment, and throttle management all combined. Therefore
>> my
>> main concern is not how you guys handle it, it's how everybody else does.
>>
>> I have spent countless hours on the phone with Dave Lockhart discussing
>> these things, and I can't tell you how much I've learned in the last
>> couple
>> of years. Keep in mind I have nothing to gain or lose either way, I don't
>> fly electrics. But I do have to build them for others and one thing I 
>> hate
>> is when anyone has problems with a plane I built, regardless of the 
>> source
>> of the problem. So, I sort of take it upon myself to try and figure out
>> solutions.
>>
>> My conclusion is this: just like with any glow plane, there is no
>> substitute
>> for power. if you're marginal on your set up because of weight
>> restrictions,
>> available equipment, or most likely $$$, you will pay for it when
>> competition circumstances deteriorate. Especially with older equipment.
>>
>> In my opinion, the answer does not lie in a rule change. It lies squarely
>> on
>> the shoulders of the equipment manufacturers and the guys having real
>> success to share thier findings in a truthful manner. We all know 
>> electric
>> power is still very much in it's infancy and the progress made in the 
>> last
>> couple of years is nothing short of outstanding. We're just not quite
>> "there" yet for Joe Average. But we're a LOT closer than we were 2-3 
>> years
>> ago, and closer than we were last year at this time. I'm really excited
>> about it all, and I appreciate the guys who I build planes for because I
>> can
>> do all of this research without having to spend my own money =) LOL
>>
>> One thing you touched on that is real to me is the need for higher pitch
>> props in various sizes. I honestly believe the solutions to these
>> particular
>> problems lie down that path. More pitch=more speed=no problems. I've seen
>> set ups that handled these conditions fine (Like the plane I built for
>> Emory
>> Schroeter, and his packs are NOT new by any means) but at the same time I
>> watch a more standard set up fry right next to it on the very next 
>> flight.
>> John for instance was ok, but marginal. Luckily those packs were brand
>> new,
>> but you can't tell me they didn't suffer damage. He put back more 
>> capacity
>> than the battery was even rated for. When he took them out of the plane 
>> it
>> was uncomfortably hot to the touch. the packs measured about 130 degrees
>> F.
>>
>> maybe the real problem is that by the time he finally gets a set up that
>> allows him to push the limits, the plane is pushing the weight limit. The
>> set up for this kind of power is really heavy. For reference, that
>> airframe
>> itself was less than 4 1/2 lbs finished on the gear. So I think perhaps
>> what
>> has John's hackles up is that most other planes simply wouldn't make
>> weight
>> with a set up like that one. hence the need for a really expensive
>> airframe
>> (I'm not cheap, but anyone with any building skill could do it too...but
>> then what's your time worth? Personal choice there and a whole 'nuther 
>> can
>> of worms).
>>
>> Didn't mean to type a novel or even crack this one open in any more
>> detail,
>> but I wanted to underscore my personal opinions that the burden lies with
>> the manufacturers and test pilots. And they are doing a great job, it 
>> just
>> takes time.
>>
>> -Mike
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Chad Northeast" <chad at f3acanada.org>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 9:06 AM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits
>>
>>
>>> Interestingly enough, up here we changed MAAC rules (similar to how you
>>> are setup with AMA/FAI separated), so that planes are weighed without
>>> batteries.  Did it about two years ago so as to allow guys to use other
>>> technology than Lipos (A123's for instance).  To date nobody has ever
>>> bothered to do anything different, and I am sure most planes have been
>>> close to the conventional weight limit, regardless of class.
>>>
>>> As for FAI, come 2008 weight limit wont matter much.  With the shorter
>>> sequences you could run a smaller pack fairly comfortably.  As well
>>> there is a 50 gram allowance I believe, so you could be 5050 grams and
>>> still be ok.  Just shortening the schedules will give electric a pretty
>>> nice boost, it will finally allow us to haul ass in a 7 min schedule and
>>> demonstrate the much needed wind killing speed that many say we dont
>>> have :-)  Time to get APC to make that 20x16 :)
>>>
>>> Chad
>>>
>>
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