[NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ...goodfor thefutureofthePattern Event?

Adrien L Terrenoire amad2terry at juno.com
Sun Jan 7 03:48:18 AKST 2007 

ANY time a rule is changed, SOMEONE is inconvienced by it. As an earlier
post said, "How many of these fliers don't have a "sport" plane they
could fly?"

I posted an earlier response that suggested limiting the size of the
engine in the 2 lower classes. That way a 2 meter ship could be used in
Int, it would just be limited to a 120. This way the several guys you
refer to below would still be able to use their current ships. As far as
the cost to buy another engine.....there are a lot of older 60 to 120,
two and four stroke engines out there in the hands of pattern fliers who
have "moved up"!

Terry T

On Sat, 6 Jan 2007 15:57:15 -0800 "Rex LESHER" <trexlesh at msn.com> writes:
Georgie
The problem with this theory is, what do we do with the guys now flying
Sportsman and Intermediate with 2 meter planes....  I know of several
guys that will be flying in both of these classes that own two or three 2
meter planes each....  It would be pretty disasterous for them to find
out
that they can't use their planes....  Just shy of forcing them to quit,
how do you want to handle this?
I could see the smaller plane theory for Sportsman as a method to hook
flyers, but on the other hand, I know quite a few guys in the local club
that don't have any planes that would be small enough to fit the
rules.....
Probably the only fair way to handle this problem would be to create a
new Sportsman class with limited size, and leave the other Sportsman
class
open to any AMA legal airplane...  This way, we would be inviting anyone
and everyone to fly, just like we are now doing in Sportsman by
allowing any AMA legal plane to compete in that class.....   Then, by
adding another class to a contest, there comes the problems with
logistics of running the contest and having enough qualified judges and
such.....
Theres no easy solution to any of this,  one solution will cause many
other problems....   It is however, very good food for thought.....

Rex
----- Original Message ----- 
From: george w. kennie 
To: NSRCA Mailing List 
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ...goodfor
thefutureofthePattern Event?


Jerry,
The way I see it is, if there's a rule limit, the guy already knows it 
exists and he is not going to show up with something that violates the 
rules. Additionally, if he owns an Impact, he has already convinced
himself 
that he's a proficient enough pilot to fly an Impact and therefore able
to 
conclude that he will be more than capable with a smaller model when 
competing against a similar field.
What guy do you know flying an Impact that doesn't have a stable of
smaller 
planes that he plays around with. I'm not sure that it's an issue.
JMO, Georgie



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "JFGREEN" <jf217green at cmc.net>
To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... goodfor 
thefutureofthePattern Event?


> Dennis:  Why a limit? What if an interested flyer shows up with an
Impact 
> to
> fly sportsman?  Are we not going to let him fly?  Sportsman doesn't
limit
> what you can fly now and it seems to work for those who are interested.

> If
> one isn't interested in competing, will creating limits on their
options
> help their interest?  Jerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dennis
> Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 10:43 AM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for
> thefutureofthePattern Event?
>
> Well at last a comment that to me makes some sense. If the perception
from
> the person wanting to start pattern is that in order to be competitive
> and/or to look like they fit in is to have the latest full 2 meter
pattern
> plane then I agree a change is needed. I have had those very words said
to
> me by someone who was interested but did not want to spend the money to
be
> as they put it "competitive". Perhaps what we need to do is limit the
size
> of the plane for the entry-level classes. This takes out the feeling of
> needing the latest and greatest, limits the cost and perhaps even tells

> them
> they can fly what they have now. I would never support telling them
they
> have to have a particular plane for the class. They have the freedom of
> choice and by the time they are ready for advanced they will be hooked
and
> can go for the bigger, more expensive stuff if they choose.
>
> Dennis Cone
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ed Miller
> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 5:59 PM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for
> thefutureofthePattern Event?
>
> The survey says.......... Only NSRCA 171 members responded, that in it 
> self
> is another topic of discussion.  Point is for the most part, the 171
that
> did respond are already hooked.  This or any other survey I'm aware of
> wasn't given to the target audience, Joe Newbie who may want to give
> pattern, NSRCA and competition a try.  We need to develop a strategy to

> add
> to that 171 number, folks that have yet to join the NSRCA.
> There has been volumes written on this forum on how to attract the 
> "newbie",
> some touting cost, size of planes, complexity of equipment and
schedules 
> as
> well as many other reasons as to why we encounter difficulty enlisting
new
> blood.  One constant we can never change ( IMHO ), if an individual
does 
> not
> have competition in their blood, we aren't going to be able to turn
them 
> to
> the "dark side" short of a lobotomy.
> On the other hand, there are those out there that might take the plunge

> but
> look at where pattern equipment evolution has gone in the last 15 years

> and
> don't see where they fit in.
> I wish I had a dollar for every OS 91 four stroke I see at fields every
> weekend powering H9 P-51's, Sticks, H9 AT6's, etc. the list goes on. 
> Along
> our infamous journey, pattern engine evolution has left behind the
sport
> flyer.  For years the staple of sport and pattern flying was the .60
2C.
> Then came the 1.20 4C.  Both engines were within the sport flyers grasp

> and
> if they took a foray into pattern and it didn't pan out, they could
always
> use that .60 2c or 1.20 4C in the sport plane ARF of the week.  Engine 
> size,
> price nor complexity generally was not an issue.  An OS 61 FSR with a
> muffler was great for a sport flyer and with a pipe made a formidable
> pattern engine package back in the day.  The original YS and Enya R 4C
1.2
> engines were reasonably priced, made good power and were reliable. 
They
> were happy in the nose of a mid '90's pattern ship or a Sig 1/4 scale
> clipped wing Cub.
> Along comes the world of 1.4 to 1.6 pumped 2C, headers and CF pipes 
> costing
> in excess of $700, 1.6 4C with headers, mufflers and 30% fuel costing
way
> over $800 to haul 2M Pregnant Guppy plane of the week around.  Say what

> you
> will but today's politically correct 2M pattern power plant options are

> for
> the most part very specific to pattern and virtually nothing else along

> with
> being expensive.  Sure the OS 1.6 is a "sport engine" at heart and at
the
> lowest end of the price spectrum but not in pattern trim with custom 
> headers
> from Karl Mueller, Hatori ( yeah, try and get those from Tower ), Perry
> pumps and take your pick of aluminum or CF pipes.  The Imac/Giant scale
> crowd have it easy, a DA 50 or 100 with some cans will power just about
> anything you want to fly, whether it be aerobatic or scale.  The only
> difference is size.   Relatively cheap fuel is readily available at
your
> local gas station.  I guess 30% Nitro heli fuel is cheap compared to
90%
> Nitro fuel run in Top Fuel Dragsters so we don't have it all that bad
:).
> Put yourself in Joe Newbie's shoes, he figures he can always sell the
> pattern airframe if he decides pattern isn't his cup of tea, but what
does
> he do with those expensive pattern specific lumps of aluminum, steel
and 
> C/F
> ??  Sure anything can be sold but at a great loss and to a small target
> audience.  Try and sell a R/E OS 140RX/header/pipe to a guy building a
1/4
> scale Cub.  Or a $800 + single cylinder 4C, that same $$ can buy a twin
> cylinder 4C with less power but a much quieter, sweeter sound, no 
> vibration
> and I know first hand a whole lot less maintenance.
> Though I have no intention of giving up my 2M planes and "expensive 
> pattern
> specific lumps of aluminum, steel and C/F" whether they be 2C, 4C or
> Electrons shortly I hope.  However, I really believe if Sportsman and
> possibly Intermediate were limited to .90 displacement, it would be a
> positive step towards Joe Newbie giving pattern a shot.  Hell, I bet he
> already has a .91 Surpass...........
> Ed M.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Grow Pattern" <pattern4u at comcast.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 7:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for
> thefutureofthePattern Event?
>
>
>> John,
>>         I thought that you might be interested in this information.
>>
>> In the 2005 NSRCA rules change survey (sent out in 2002) I compiled
the
>> following question with the intent of encouraging 60-90 sized
completive
>> airplane development.
>>
>> Judging of distances
>>
>>
>> Question-65
>>
>> Should we therefore consider and AMA pattern contest rule change that
>> states
>> the pilot should make the plane appear to be at the size of a 2-meter
>> plane
>> being flown at 150-175 meters.?
>>
>> YES = 71        NO = 100          RESULT = NO PROPOSED CHANGE .
>>
>> I had been advised that the existing selection-and-intent of the FAI
>> 150-metres rule was to create a relatively equal ease of visibility
for 
>> 2M
>> airplanes to the judges??  Whether that was true or not I admit to
being
>> very surprised when the idea was rejected so soundly by the survey
>> respondents.
>>
>> I had been thinking that the smaller planes would fare better if they 
>> were
>> flown in a bit closer. Our rough math had shown that a 60-72" airplane
>> would
>> look just about right at 100-110-M.
>>
>> What would the difference be for a 2-M airplane and a 1.5-M airplane
if
>> flown at their relative distances?
>>
>> I also thought that the budding but slower electric planes of the day
>> could
>> use the closer in option and need less extreme (read expensive) power
>> systems.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Eric.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Ferrell" <johnferrell at earthlink.net>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 4:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the
>> futureofthePattern Event?
>>
>>
>>> There is no need to worry about rules changes at this time.
>>>
>>> Those of us dabbling with smaller planes are doing it with the
existing
>>> rules. If winning trophies and satisfying judging problems are at the

>>> top
>>> of
>>> your needs you will probably be best served with whatever is
percieved 
>>> as
>>> the latest & greatest equipment.
>>>
>>> I have two boxes of trophies out in the shed. The smaller box is from
>>> when
>>> nobody better showed up. The larger box is from events that did not
get
>>> enough attendance to give away the trophies. I don't have strong 
>>> feelings
>>> about either box!
>>>
>>> I just want to fly more and enjoy it more. Right now that appears to
be
>>> with
>>> a little smaller airplane!
>>>
>>> John Ferrell    W8CCW
>>> "My Competition is not my enemy"
>>> http://DixieNC.US
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "george w. kennie" <geobet at gis.net>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 10:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the future
>>> ofthePattern Event?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Deano,
>>>> When you reference " changing the shape of the event ", how deep are

>>>> you
>>>> suggesting things go?  Are we losing sight of the fact that we are
part
>>>> of
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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