[NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ...goodfor thefutureofthePattern Event?

JFGREEN jf217green at cmc.net
Sat Jan 6 16:07:23 AKST 2007 

Let me give you an example:  My brother decided to try pattern.  Hes a good
flyer and flew two contests with a 60 trainer.  Two contests that convinced
him that he would like to jump into pattern.  He bought an impact and wants
to get serious in sportsman this coming year.  Possibly he will be told
sorry you can't fly at our contest now because you decided to buy near state
of the art equipment and it's not fair to those who are less fortunate or
talented than you are.  He also bought an IMAC airplane this year.  If the
"fairness rule" takes effect he some others I recruited may have some
pattern planes for sale and IMAC will benefit by their participation.  I
have nothing against anyone participating in sportsman with any type of
airplane they have, a 60 trainer or an Elexant.  How far do we carry it?  If
another guy shows up in intermediate with a Twister and I can only afford an
old used Oly, do we give me a handicap on the scoring.  What if the wind is
blowing, handicap for the 60 trainer, and my Oly.  It wouldn't be "fair" to
do otherwise, would it?

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of george w.
kennie
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 3:21 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ...goodfor
thefutureofthePattern Event?

Jerry,
The way I see it is, if there's a rule limit, the guy already knows it 
exists and he is not going to show up with something that violates the 
rules. Additionally, if he owns an Impact, he has already convinced himself 
that he's a proficient enough pilot to fly an Impact and therefore able to 
conclude that he will be more than capable with a smaller model when 
competing against a similar field.
What guy do you know flying an Impact that doesn't have a stable of smaller 
planes that he plays around with. I'm not sure that it's an issue.
JMO, Georgie



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "JFGREEN" <jf217green at cmc.net>
To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... goodfor 
thefutureofthePattern Event?


> Dennis:  Why a limit? What if an interested flyer shows up with an Impact 
> to
> fly sportsman?  Are we not going to let him fly?  Sportsman doesn't limit
> what you can fly now and it seems to work for those who are interested. 
> If
> one isn't interested in competing, will creating limits on their options
> help their interest?  Jerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dennis
> Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 10:43 AM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for
> thefutureofthePattern Event?
>
> Well at last a comment that to me makes some sense. If the perception from
> the person wanting to start pattern is that in order to be competitive
> and/or to look like they fit in is to have the latest full 2 meter pattern
> plane then I agree a change is needed. I have had those very words said to
> me by someone who was interested but did not want to spend the money to be
> as they put it "competitive". Perhaps what we need to do is limit the size
> of the plane for the entry-level classes. This takes out the feeling of
> needing the latest and greatest, limits the cost and perhaps even tells 
> them
> they can fly what they have now. I would never support telling them they
> have to have a particular plane for the class. They have the freedom of
> choice and by the time they are ready for advanced they will be hooked and
> can go for the bigger, more expensive stuff if they choose.
>
> Dennis Cone
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ed Miller
> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 5:59 PM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for
> thefutureofthePattern Event?
>
> The survey says.......... Only NSRCA 171 members responded, that in it 
> self
> is another topic of discussion.  Point is for the most part, the 171 that
> did respond are already hooked.  This or any other survey I'm aware of
> wasn't given to the target audience, Joe Newbie who may want to give
> pattern, NSRCA and competition a try.  We need to develop a strategy to 
> add
> to that 171 number, folks that have yet to join the NSRCA.
> There has been volumes written on this forum on how to attract the 
> "newbie",
> some touting cost, size of planes, complexity of equipment and schedules 
> as
> well as many other reasons as to why we encounter difficulty enlisting new
> blood.  One constant we can never change ( IMHO ), if an individual does 
> not
> have competition in their blood, we aren't going to be able to turn them 
> to
> the "dark side" short of a lobotomy.
> On the other hand, there are those out there that might take the plunge 
> but
> look at where pattern equipment evolution has gone in the last 15 years 
> and
> don't see where they fit in.
> I wish I had a dollar for every OS 91 four stroke I see at fields every
> weekend powering H9 P-51's, Sticks, H9 AT6's, etc. the list goes on. 
> Along
> our infamous journey, pattern engine evolution has left behind the sport
> flyer.  For years the staple of sport and pattern flying was the .60 2C.
> Then came the 1.20 4C.  Both engines were within the sport flyers grasp 
> and
> if they took a foray into pattern and it didn't pan out, they could always
> use that .60 2c or 1.20 4C in the sport plane ARF of the week.  Engine 
> size,
> price nor complexity generally was not an issue.  An OS 61 FSR with a
> muffler was great for a sport flyer and with a pipe made a formidable
> pattern engine package back in the day.  The original YS and Enya R 4C 1.2
> engines were reasonably priced, made good power and were reliable.  They
> were happy in the nose of a mid '90's pattern ship or a Sig 1/4 scale
> clipped wing Cub.
> Along comes the world of 1.4 to 1.6 pumped 2C, headers and CF pipes 
> costing
> in excess of $700, 1.6 4C with headers, mufflers and 30% fuel costing way
> over $800 to haul 2M Pregnant Guppy plane of the week around.  Say what 
> you
> will but today's politically correct 2M pattern power plant options are 
> for
> the most part very specific to pattern and virtually nothing else along 
> with
> being expensive.  Sure the OS 1.6 is a "sport engine" at heart and at the
> lowest end of the price spectrum but not in pattern trim with custom 
> headers
> from Karl Mueller, Hatori ( yeah, try and get those from Tower ), Perry
> pumps and take your pick of aluminum or CF pipes.  The Imac/Giant scale
> crowd have it easy, a DA 50 or 100 with some cans will power just about
> anything you want to fly, whether it be aerobatic or scale.  The only
> difference is size.   Relatively cheap fuel is readily available at your
> local gas station.  I guess 30% Nitro heli fuel is cheap compared to 90%
> Nitro fuel run in Top Fuel Dragsters so we don't have it all that bad :).
> Put yourself in Joe Newbie's shoes, he figures he can always sell the
> pattern airframe if he decides pattern isn't his cup of tea, but what does
> he do with those expensive pattern specific lumps of aluminum, steel and 
> C/F
> ??  Sure anything can be sold but at a great loss and to a small target
> audience.  Try and sell a R/E OS 140RX/header/pipe to a guy building a 1/4
> scale Cub.  Or a $800 + single cylinder 4C, that same $$ can buy a twin
> cylinder 4C with less power but a much quieter, sweeter sound, no 
> vibration
> and I know first hand a whole lot less maintenance.
> Though I have no intention of giving up my 2M planes and "expensive 
> pattern
> specific lumps of aluminum, steel and C/F" whether they be 2C, 4C or
> Electrons shortly I hope.  However, I really believe if Sportsman and
> possibly Intermediate were limited to .90 displacement, it would be a
> positive step towards Joe Newbie giving pattern a shot.  Hell, I bet he
> already has a .91 Surpass...........
> Ed M.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Grow Pattern" <pattern4u at comcast.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 7:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for
> thefutureofthePattern Event?
>
>
>> John,
>>         I thought that you might be interested in this information.
>>
>> In the 2005 NSRCA rules change survey (sent out in 2002) I compiled the
>> following question with the intent of encouraging 60-90 sized completive
>> airplane development.
>>
>> Judging of distances
>>
>>
>> Question-65
>>
>> Should we therefore consider and AMA pattern contest rule change that
>> states
>> the pilot should make the plane appear to be at the size of a 2-meter
>> plane
>> being flown at 150-175 meters.?
>>
>> YES = 71        NO = 100          RESULT = NO PROPOSED CHANGE .
>>
>> I had been advised that the existing selection-and-intent of the FAI
>> 150-metres rule was to create a relatively equal ease of visibility for 
>> 2M
>> airplanes to the judges??  Whether that was true or not I admit to being
>> very surprised when the idea was rejected so soundly by the survey
>> respondents.
>>
>> I had been thinking that the smaller planes would fare better if they 
>> were
>> flown in a bit closer. Our rough math had shown that a 60-72" airplane
>> would
>> look just about right at 100-110-M.
>>
>> What would the difference be for a 2-M airplane and a 1.5-M airplane if
>> flown at their relative distances?
>>
>> I also thought that the budding but slower electric planes of the day
>> could
>> use the closer in option and need less extreme (read expensive) power
>> systems.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Eric.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Ferrell" <johnferrell at earthlink.net>
>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 4:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the
>> futureofthePattern Event?
>>
>>
>>> There is no need to worry about rules changes at this time.
>>>
>>> Those of us dabbling with smaller planes are doing it with the existing
>>> rules. If winning trophies and satisfying judging problems are at the 
>>> top
>>> of
>>> your needs you will probably be best served with whatever is percieved 
>>> as
>>> the latest & greatest equipment.
>>>
>>> I have two boxes of trophies out in the shed. The smaller box is from
>>> when
>>> nobody better showed up. The larger box is from events that did not get
>>> enough attendance to give away the trophies. I don't have strong 
>>> feelings
>>> about either box!
>>>
>>> I just want to fly more and enjoy it more. Right now that appears to be
>>> with
>>> a little smaller airplane!
>>>
>>> John Ferrell    W8CCW
>>> "My Competition is not my enemy"
>>> http://DixieNC.US
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "george w. kennie" <geobet at gis.net>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 10:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the future
>>> ofthePattern Event?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Deano,
>>>> When you reference " changing the shape of the event ", how deep are 
>>>> you
>>>> suggesting things go?  Are we losing sight of the fact that we are part
>>>> of
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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