[NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for thefutureofthePattern Event?
Bob Richards
bob at toprudder.com
Fri Jan 5 05:09:13 AKST 2007
You know, I had much better luck recruiting new pattern flyers when I was actively flying my Cap 21 in pattern.
Bob R.
ronlock at comcast.net wrote:
Yep, part of reason for my Tiger II sport planes is to show
"precision-ish" aerobatics to potential new pattern pilots.
That may have helped with local recruiting.
But....The nearby 2 meter tends to contradict the message that the
new guys don't need it. It's presence keeps saying that a 2 meter is
the logical result of starting down the pattern road.
Later, Ron Lockhart
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
> To entice begiiners into pattern, the question is... "What do I need to
> compete at Sportsman level"... and for Sportsman, the .60 to .90 size planes
> are just fine. I've seen a U-Can-Do 3D 60 beat a 2 meter plane... At
> Sportsman, I'd expect a 60 size "Ultra Stick" to do very well.
>
> You can explain the difference in aircraft performance requirements with
> increasing competiton levels, while standing beside that top end 2-meter
> plane with 3KW of brushless power (or a 1.60 2-stroke... or even the
> turbine) in the nose, and not look like you're making things up by:::
> breaking out a sport model and taking it through the Sportsman sequence to
> demonstrate.
>
> A sport model being contro! lled by a Pattern flyer looks like a different
> model than the same plane being flown by an average "sunday flyer". The
> stick skills show, no matter what the pilot is flying.
>
> Actually.. if the pilot's stick skills need work... a sport model can look
> smoother than the 2-meter Pattern design. My .90 size (e-powered) pattern
> design shows me EVERY mistake I make. My sport models hide a lot. I
> "twitch" the pattern plane responds NOW. The sport plane seems to "think
> about it" for a bit.
>
> **************
>
> I still think the Sportsman sequence needs to be CAREFULLY kept such that a
> .60 size "Ugly stick" or equivilent with a .60 2-stroke in the nose can do
> all maneuvers easilly. That vertical up-line in the new sequence pushes the
> edge of what should be in Sportsman... (the .60 size Ugly Stick needs a .91
> 4-stroke in the nose with that maneuver in the se! quence. .. The .61 2-stroke
> runs out of steam on the way up.)
>
> You want a good Sportsman sequence... have a Sportsman draw it up... not a
> Masters or FAI competitor.
>
> Sportsman is to get the beginners to competition used to flying in front of
> judges. Sportsman used to be called "Novice"..... and that helped keep the
> purpose of the class visible. Its there to help new competitors learn to
> handle the stress of flying for score and to build basic skills needed for
> higher level competition.... Not to test the vertical performance of the
> aircraft.
>
> Sportsman, in my opinion could withstand having a permanantly fixed
> sequence. (such as the one that just got superceeded, because I think the
> new one demands too much out of the aircraft) When a Sportsman competitor
> gets bored flying that same sequence every contest... its probably time to
> move up! .
& gt;
> FHH
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ed Miller"
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 2:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for
> thefutureofthePattern Event?
>
>
> >I think the fact there are a slew of 60 to 90 sized pattern arfs readily
> > available at a sub $300 price tag will motivate newbies more than the
> > cumbersome size issue. If or when a newbie gets hooked, the size issue,
> > or
> > lack there of, then is an added benefit. Problem is and we've all been
> > there is the question "what do I need to compete with". There you stand
> > touting all the good 60 to 90 size planes out there while trying to hide
> > your guppy 2M plane of the week............
> > Ed M.
> > ----- Origina! l Messa ge -----
> > From: "Dean Pappas"
> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 2:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the
> > futureofthePattern Event?
> >
> >
> >> Thanks Jay,
> >> That's why I posted to the list. Between the whole lot of us, we can get
> >> some coverage.
> >> Maybe it begs the issue of how to find newbies in the first place ( silly
> >> grin ) but you might start at the regular club meeting/field.
> >> Aren't there guys who watch and comment on your Pattern stuff, but don't
> >> get into the event, in your local club?
> >> Ask them if they think the entry barrier would change for them or someone
> >> like them. They may be closer to that prospective newbie than you ar! e.
> >> They may come back and say that the practice discipline is why they will
> >> never do it,
> >> and others may come back and say, "Wow smaller/cheaper planes that fit in
> >> my car and my apartmenmt workshop! I'm in!"
> >> I doubt you'll get such clear feedback, but you might get something.
> >> later,
> >> Dean
> >>
> >>
> >> Dean Pappas
> >> Sr. Design Engineer
> >> Kodeos Communications
> >> 111 Corporate Blvd.
> >> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
> >> (908) 222-7817 phone
> >> (908) 222-2392 fax
> >> d.pappas at kodeos.com
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jay
> ! >> ; Marshall
> >> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:58 PM
> >> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the future
> >> ofthePattern Event?
> >>
> >>
> >> Dean, you bring up a very good point. Most of us are seeped in the 2m
> >> venue.
> >> We should really be talking to prospective new flyers. How do we do that?
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dean
> >> Pappas
> >> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:09 PM
> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the future of
> >> thePattern Event?
> >>
> >> Hi Anthon! y,
> >> Hi All,
> >> Forget the implementational details for now. Stop trying to Engineer it,
> >> we
> >> are doing Marketting.
> >> If it helps to get in the right frame of mind, take a few stiff drinks
> >> and
> >> bang your head on the workbench about ten times.
> >> If we decide that it's worthwhile, then there are a zillion ways to make
> >> the
> >> transition and to also grandfather existing planes for several years.
> >> That's not the issue, at least not for now.
> >>
> >> Changing the shape of the event: just for "something to do" would be an
> >> awful waste of energy and needless turmoil.
> >> We all dislike wasted energy, and I hope that we all agree that needless
> >> turmoil is to be avoided.
> >> I really want to focus on the basic question. Will ! making Pattern ships
> >> smaller lead to increased future participation in the event?
> >> If the answer isn't YES, then the grief probably ain't worth it.
> >>
> >> So far, I am hearing a mixed bag, and a whole lot of talk about the
> >> compromises we have all made when buying a vehicle.
> >> I am there with you. (stow 'n go Grand caravan ... love it)
> >> But the choir is already saved, and you all already fly Pattern.
> >> Please go pester the newbies and the folks that you think are potential
> >> Pattern newbies.
> >> Will this make a difference as to whether they take the plunge?
> >> Maybe the answer is that future participation won't be improved.
> >>
> >> After we figure out whether future participation will or will not be
> >> helped,
> >> then we can figure out what those of us! alread y in the event would like.
> >> That is an entirely separate question.
> >>
> >> thanks for the help,
> >> Dean
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Dean Pappas
> >> Sr. Design Engineer
> >> Kodeos Communications
> >> 111 Corporate Blvd.
> >> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
> >> (908) 222-7817 phone
> >> (908) 222-2392 fax
> >> d.pappas at kodeos.com
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Anthony
> >> Romano
> >> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:31 AM
> >> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models bonus!?
> >>
&! gt; > ;>
> >> Ok I will try it again. What about a 10 % score bonus for a 1.7m model?
> >> 1.5m
> >>
> >> 20%? Encourage the newbie or the guy on a budget and take away the
> >> perceived
> >>
> >> advantage without causing obsolescence on current equipment.
> >> Remember the biplane bonus at the TOC? Wasn't there a size bonus as well
> >> waaayyy back?
> >>
> >> Maybe it needs to be limited to sportsman or intermediate maybe not.
> >>
> >> Anthony
> >>
> >>
> >>>From: "Ed Miller"
> >>>Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List
> >>>To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> >>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models
> >>>Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007! 08:12: 11 -0500
> >>>
> >>>Yes, that is known as the BPA, Ballistic Pattern Association. So soon
> >>>there
> >>>will be 3 pattern venues to split the already dwindling pattern base :).
> >>>Ed M.
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>From: "Earl Haury"
> >>>To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> >>>Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 6:40 AM
> >>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Interesting indeed - a local club is considering holding a "ole fashion"
> >>>pattern contest this fall. The plan is to fly pre-turnaround pattern. Not
> >>>sure exactly what the rules will be - but not SPA, as the intent is to
> >>>allow
> >>>'70's - '80's airplanes! with p iped engines & retracts (one member
> >>>mentioned
> >>>a Brushfire with piped Jett 90).
> >>>
> >>>I'm very comfortable with pattern as it is - however, there is a gap
> >>>between
> >>>current pattern and SPA that many seem interested in.
> >>>
> >>>Earl
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: Koenig, Tom
> >>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 7:16 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Guys-there are many of us that reminisce about the 'simpler' days of
> >>> the
> >>>60 size models, even down here!
> >>>
> >>> I mentioned recently to some locals that I may hold a comp similar to
> & gt;>>your
> >>>SPA stuff. I considered just allowing 60 size models as a max, never mind
> >>>all the vintage rules etc.....I was SWAMPED with interest. There were all
> >>>sorts of ex pattern pilots ready to show up. I think I'd have had 40 -50
> >>>possible entries!!!
> >>>
> >>> Not trying to stir things up-but it is interesting nonetheless.
> >>>
> >>> Tom
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ron
> >>>Lockhart
> >>> Sent: Thursday, 4 January 2007 11:31 AM
> >>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models
> >>>
> >>>
> >&g! t;> Yea, smaller has a number of advantages.
> >>> A reduction in money, time, hassle factor, etc., of models is a
> >>>thought
> >>>toward increased participation.
> >>> (Yea, I know the established pilots, and new pilots, are allowed to
> >>>fly
> >>>smaller models right now. But we have a
> >>> lot of history that shows Dean's comment "Given that everyone will
> >>>build or buy up to the maximum size limit" is true.
> >>> How does that Dixie thing go?....
> >>>
> >>> Ron Lockhart
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: Dean Pappas
> >>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 4:51 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Header Brace
> >>>
> >&g! t;>
> >>> Hi John,
> >>> A year or so ago, I puit together an Excelleron 90 for a review
> >>> and
> >>>eventual sale to a newbie.
> >>> Boy! Was it nice to drop a plane into the minivan in one piece!
> >>> It was almost as good as when a Phoenix 8 would fit into the back
> >>> of
> >>
> >>>a
> >>>hatchback Camaro in one piece.
> >>>
> >>> Given that everyone will build or buy up to the maximum size
> >>> limit,
> >>> is there a good enough reason to push on the rules bodies to
> >>>legislate
> >>>Pattern plane sizes back down?
> >>> How about 1.6 or 1.7 meters square?
> >>> Will this affect cost and complexity enough to have a beneficial
> >>>effect on participation?
> >&g! t;> Or am I just whistling Dixie?
> >>>
> >>> later,
> >>> Dean
> >>> Dean Pappas
> >>> Sr. Design Engineer
> >>> Kodeos Communications
> >>> 111 Corporate Blvd.
> >>> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
> >>> (908) 222-7817 phone
> >>> (908) 222-2392 fax
> >>> d.pappas at kodeos.com
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John
> >>>Ferrell
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 3:07 PM
> >>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Header Brace
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> There seems to be a growing trend toward sm! aller a irplanes among
> >>> a
> >>>lot of folks. I sure am enjoying the 90 size Boxer I bought from Ed
> >>>Miller
> >>>last summer. Less hassle to transport, assemble and fly. That means I can
> >>>fly more!
> >>>
> >>> John Ferrell W8CCW
> >>> "My Competition is not my enemy"
> >>> http://DixieNC.US
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
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