[NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good forthefutureofthePattern Event?

Thu Jan 4 13:01:53 AKST 2007

Thinking out loud the 40% and the trailer doesn't seem to scare guys away 
from IMAC. Once they are fully among the faithful is the 2m road really a 
problem? Or is it time to change the sport completely?

Anthony

>From: ronlock at comcast.net
>Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good 
>forthefutureofthePattern Event?
>Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 21:46:48 +0000
>
>Yep, part of reason for my Tiger II sport planes is to show
>"precision-ish" aerobatics to potential new pattern pilots.
>That may have helped with local recruiting.
>
>But....The nearby 2 meter tends to contradict the message that the
>new guys don't need it.   It's presence keeps saying that a 2 meter is
>the logical result of starting down the pattern road.
>
>Later, Ron Lockhart
>
>-------------- Original message --------------
>From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>
> > To entice begiiners into pattern, the question is... "What do I need to
> > compete at Sportsman level"... and for Sportsman, the .60 to .90 size 
>planes
> > are just fine. I've seen a U-Can-Do 3D 60 beat a 2 meter plane... At
> > Sportsman, I'd expect a 60 size "Ultra Stick" to do very well.
> >
> > You can explain the difference in aircraft performance requirements with
> > increasing competiton levels, while standing beside that top end 2-meter
> > plane with 3KW of brushless power (or a 1.60 2-stroke... or even the
> > turbine) in the nose, and not look like you're making things up by:::
> > breaking out a sport model and taking it through the Sportsman sequence 
>to
> > demonstrate.
> >
> > A sport model being controlled by a Pattern flyer looks like a different
> > model than the same plane being flown by an average "sunday flyer". The
> > stick skills show, no matter what the pilot is flying.
> >
> > Actually.. if the pilot's stick skills need work... a sport model can 
>look
> > smoother than the 2-meter Pattern design. My .90 size (e-powered) 
>pattern
> > design shows me EVERY mistake I make. My sport models hide a lot. I
> > "twitch" the pattern plane responds NOW. The sport plane seems to "think
> > about it" for a bit.
> >
> > **************
> >
> > I still think the Sportsman sequence needs to be CAREFULLY kept such 
>that a
> > .60 size "Ugly stick" or equivilent with a .60 2-stroke in the nose can 
>do
> > all maneuvers easilly. That vertical up-line in the new sequence pushes 
>the
> > edge of what should be in Sportsman... (the .60 size Ugly Stick needs a 
>.91
> > 4-stroke in the nose with that maneuver in the sequence... The .61 
>2-stroke
> > runs out of steam on the way up.)
> >
> > You want a good Sportsman sequence... have a Sportsman draw it up... not 
>a
> > Masters or FAI competitor.
> >
> > Sportsman is to get the beginners to competition used to flying in front 
>of
> > judges. Sportsman used to be called "Novice"..... and that helped keep 
>the
> > purpose of the class visible. Its there to help new competitors learn to
> > handle the stress of flying for score and to build basic skills needed 
>for
> > higher level competition.... Not to test the vertical performance of the
> > aircraft.
> >
> > Sportsman, in my opinion could withstand having a permanantly fixed
> > sequence. (such as the one that just got superceeded, because I think 
>the
> > new one demands too much out of the aircraft) When a Sportsman 
>competitor
> > gets bored flying that same sequence every contest... its probably time 
>to
> > move up.
> >
> > FHH
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ed Miller"
> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 2:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for
> > thefutureofthePattern Event?
> >
> >
> > >I think the fact there are a slew of 60 to 90 sized pattern arfs 
>readily
> > > available at a sub $300 price tag will motivate newbies more than the
> > > cumbersome size issue. If or when a newbie gets hooked, the size 
>issue,
> > > or
> > > lack there of, then is an added benefit. Problem is and we've all been
> > > there is the question "what do I need to compete with". There you 
>stand
> > > touting all the good 60 to 90 size planes out there while trying to 
>hide
> > > your guppy 2M plane of the week............
> > > Ed M.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Dean Pappas"
> > > To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 2:21 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the
> > > futureofthePattern Event?
> > >
> > >
> > >> Thanks Jay,
> > >> That's why I posted to the list. Between the whole lot of us, we can 
>get
> > >> some coverage.
> > >> Maybe it begs the issue of how to find newbies in the first place ( 
>silly
> > >> grin ) but you might start at the regular club meeting/field.
> > >> Aren't there guys who watch and comment on your Pattern stuff, but 
>don't
> > >> get into the event, in your local club?
> > >> Ask them if they think the entry barrier would change for them or 
>someone
> > >> like them. They may be closer to that prospective newbie than you 
>are.
> > >> They may come back and say that the practice discipline is why they 
>will
> > >> never do it,
> > >> and others may come back and say, "Wow smaller/cheaper planes that 
>fit in
> > >> my car and my apartmenmt workshop! I'm in!"
> > >> I doubt you'll get such clear feedback, but you might get something.
> > >> later,
> > >> Dean
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dean Pappas
> > >> Sr. Design Engineer
> > >> Kodeos Communications
> > >> 111 Corporate Blvd.
> > >> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
> > >> (908) 222-7817 phone
> > >> (908) 222-2392 fax
> > >> d.pappas at kodeos.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> > >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jay
> > >> Marshall
> > >> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:58 PM
> > >> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
> > >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the future
> > >> ofthePattern Event?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dean, you bring up a very good point. Most of us are seeped in the 2m
> > >> venue.
> > >> We should really be talking to prospective new flyers. How do we do 
>that?
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> > >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dean
> > >> Pappas
> > >> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:09 PM
> > >> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> > >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the future 
>of
> > >> thePattern Event?
> > >>
> > >> Hi Anthony,
> > >> Hi All,
> > >> Forget the implementational details for now. Stop trying to Engineer 
>it,
> > >> we
> > >> are doing Marketting.
> > >> If it helps to get in the right frame of mind, take a few stiff 
>drinks
> > >> and
> > >> bang your head on the workbench about ten times.
> > >> If we decide that it's worthwhile, then there are a zillion ways to 
>make
> > >> the
> > >> transition and to also grandfather existing planes for several years.
> > >> That's not the issue, at least not for now.
> > >>
> > >> Changing the shape of the event: just for "something to do" would be 
>an
> > >> awful waste of energy and needless turmoil.
> > >> We all dislike wasted energy, and I hope that we all agree that 
>needless
> > >> turmoil is to be avoided.
> > >> I really want to focus on the basic question. Will making Pattern 
>ships
> > >> smaller lead to increased future participation in the event?
> > >> If the answer isn't YES, then the grief probably ain't worth it.
> > >>
> > >> So far, I am hearing a mixed bag, and a whole lot of talk about the
> > >> compromises we have all made when buying a vehicle.
> > >> I am there with you. (stow 'n go Grand caravan ... love it)
> > >> But the choir is already saved, and you all already fly Pattern.
> > >> Please go pester the newbies and the folks that you think are 
>potential
> > >> Pattern newbies.
> > >> Will this make a difference as to whether they take the plunge?
> > >> Maybe the answer is that future participation won't be improved.
> > >>
> > >> After we figure out whether future participation will or will not be
> > >> helped,
> > >> then we can figure out what those of us already in the event would 
>like.
> > >> That is an entirely separate question.
> > >>
> > >> thanks for the help,
> > >> Dean
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dean Pappas
> > >> Sr. Design Engineer
> > >> Kodeos Communications
> > >> 111 Corporate Blvd.
> > >> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
> > >> (908) 222-7817 phone
> > >> (908) 222-2392 fax
> > >> d.pappas at kodeos.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> > >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Anthony
> > >> Romano
> > >> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:31 AM
> > >> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > >> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models bonus!?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Ok I will try it again. What about a 10 % score bonus for a 1.7m 
>model?
> > >> 1.5m
> > >>
> > >> 20%? Encourage the newbie or the guy on a budget and take away the
> > >> perceived
> > >>
> > >> advantage without causing obsolescence on current equipment.
> > >> Remember the biplane bonus at the TOC? Wasn't there a size bonus as 
>well
> > >> waaayyy back?
> > >>
> > >> Maybe it needs to be limited to sportsman or intermediate maybe not.
> > >>
> > >> Anthony
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>From: "Ed Miller"
> > >>>Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List
> > >>>To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> > >>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models
> > >>>Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 08:12:11 -0500
> > >>>
> > >>>Yes, that is known as the BPA, Ballistic Pattern Association. So soon
> > >>>there
> > >>>will be 3 pattern venues to split the already dwindling pattern base 
>:).
> > >>>Ed M.
> > >>>----- Original Message -----
> > >>>From: "Earl Haury"
> > >>>To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> > >>>Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 6:40 AM
> > >>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>Interesting indeed - a local club is considering holding a "ole 
>fashion"
> > >>>pattern contest this fall. The plan is to fly pre-turnaround pattern. 
>Not
> > >>>sure exactly what the rules will be - but not SPA, as the intent is 
>to
> > >>>allow
> > >>>'70's - '80's airplanes with piped engines & retracts (one member
> > >>>mentioned
> > >>>a Brushfire with piped Jett 90).
> > >>>
> > >>>I'm very comfortable with pattern as it is - however, there is a gap
> > >>>between
> > >>>current pattern and SPA that many seem interested in.
> > >>>
> > >>>Earl
> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>> From: Koenig, Tom
> > >>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 7:16 PM
> > >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Guys-there are many of us that reminisce about the 'simpler' days of
> > >>> the
> > >>>60 size models, even down here!
> > >>>
> > >>> I mentioned recently to some locals that I may hold a comp similar 
>to
> > >>>your
> > >>>SPA stuff. I considered just allowing 60 size models as a max, never 
>mind
> > >>>all the vintage rules etc.....I was SWAMPED with interest. There were 
>all
> > >>>sorts of ex pattern pilots ready to show up. I think I'd have had 40 
>-50
> > >>>possible entries!!!
> > >>>
> > >>> Not trying to stir things up-but it is interesting nonetheless.
> > >>>
> > >>> Tom
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> > >>>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ron
> > >>>Lockhart
> > >>> Sent: Thursday, 4 January 2007 11:31 AM
> > >>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> > >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Yea, smaller has a number of advantages.
> > >>> A reduction in money, time, hassle factor, etc., of models is a
> > >>>thought
> > >>>toward increased participation.
> > >>> (Yea, I know the established pilots, and new pilots, are allowed to
> > >>>fly
> > >>>smaller models right now. But we have a
> > >>> lot of history that shows Dean's comment "Given that everyone will
> > >>>build or buy up to the maximum size limit" is true.
> > >>> How does that Dixie thing go?....
> > >>>
> > >>> Ron Lockhart
> > >>>
> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>> From: Dean Pappas
> > >>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 4:51 PM
> > >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Header Brace
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi John,
> > >>> A year or so ago, I puit together an Excelleron 90 for a review
> > >>> and
> > >>>eventual sale to a newbie.
> > >>> Boy! Was it nice to drop a plane into the minivan in one piece!
> > >>> It was almost as good as when a Phoenix 8 would fit into the back
> > >>> of
> > >>
> > >>>a
> > >>>hatchback Camaro in one piece.
> > >>>
> > >>> Given that everyone will build or buy up to the maximum size
> > >>> limit,
> > >>> is there a good enough reason to push on the rules bodies to
> > >>>legislate
> > >>>Pattern plane sizes back down?
> > >>> How about 1.6 or 1.7 meters square?
> > >>> Will this affect cost and complexity enough to have a beneficial
> > >>>effect on participation?
> > >>> Or am I just whistling Dixie?
> > >>>
> > >>> later,
> > >>> Dean
> > >>> Dean Pappas
> > >>> Sr. Design Engineer
> > >>> Kodeos Communications
> > >>> 111 Corporate Blvd.
> > >>> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
> > >>> (908) 222-7817 phone
> > >>> (908) 222-2392 fax
> > >>> d.pappas at kodeos.com
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> > >>>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John
> > >>>Ferrell
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 3:07 PM
> > >>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> > >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Header Brace
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> There seems to be a growing trend toward smaller airplanes among
> > >>> a
> > >>>lot of folks. I sure am enjoying the 90 size Boxer I bought from Ed
> > >>>Miller
> > >>>last summer. Less hassle to transport, assemble and fly. That means I 
>can
> > >>>fly more!
> > >>>
> > >>> John Ferrell W8CCW
> > >>> "My Competition is not my enemy"
> > >>> http://DixieNC.US
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > 
> >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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