[NSRCA-discussion] Musicians (off topic)

Thu Dec 13 13:23:27 AKST 2007

Yeah, tough crowd! <LOL>

John Pavlick
http://www.idseng.com
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Koenig, Tom 
  To: NSRCA Mailing List 
  Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 4:04 PM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Musicians (off topic)

  You guys are starting to scare me!!

  One of the reasons I have been very thin on the flying of late is because I have 'returned' to custom building Basses....I have a constant stream of 'musicians' in and out of my workshop on a daily basis ( after I finish my 'real' job!)

  Now I'm finding out that more and more of 'us' pattern nerds are either still practicing musos or ex wanna be rockstars!

  Yes I do have some genuine Rockstar customers...I will be teaching a few to fly soon too!  

  What a bunch of guys you all are!!!!

  Tom

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  From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Gray E Fowler
  Sent: Friday, 14 December 2007 4:47 AM
  To: NSRCA Mailing List
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gov'ment Job.......was: Re: Off topic

  Wayne 

  Since you live near me you do not count....when you visit your sister stop by and I will tell you..... 

  Gray Fowler
  Senior Principal Chemical Engineer
  Radomes and Specialty Apertures
  Technical Staff Composites Engineering
  Raytheon 

        "wgalligan" <wgalligan at att.net> 
        Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
        12/13/2007 11:28 AM Please respond to
              NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 

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              Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gov'ment Job.......was: Re:  Off topic 

  NICE Dwayne.... 

  Yes Gray lets hear it for the tube amp vs P/A amp.   I wanna know. 

  WG 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dwayne Brown 
  To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' 
  Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 11:51 AM 
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gov'ment Job.......was: Re: Off topic 

  I'm gonna listen to my ES335 thru my Princeton amp I bought in 1964 then maybe I'll plug into my Fender Dual Reverb with my PRS or my Les Paul Jr I bought in 1957.  Tone!!!  Dwayne 

  -----Original Message-----
  From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of wgalligan
  Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:17 AM
  To: NSRCA Mailing List
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gov'ment Job.......was: Re: Off topic 

  Once again... Gray bends the envelope on his vast infinite wealth of useful knowledge. 

  Thanks for that audio bit of brain food.... now back to my $99.00 12 Gauge practice amp.  (Wishing that I had a full blown tube amp  from the 70's) 

  WG... 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Gray E Fowler 
  To: NSRCA Mailing List 
  Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:18 AM 
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gov'ment Job.......was: Re: Off topic 

  I have tried to stay out of this as it could become old guy vs young guy, but then again I am no longer young..... 

  As an ex muscian I have recorded about 25 original songs and the interesting thing is that my recording time frame spans the cross over of analog to digital, that is 1985 to about 1995. 

  Led Zeps "Whole Lotta Love" is not record groove bleed over, but is called tape print through. That's where a freshly recorded magnetic impression transfers through the back side of the tape onto a place it does not belong-one reel revolution. To alleviate this tapes are to be stored "tails out" which the recording engineer obviously forgot to do...in 1969. So that has to be the coolest recording accident of all time. 

  I have known many home listening "audiophiles" in my life, some I would call friends. I was always amazed at the money that they spent on their home systems that was at times more than what it would cost to put in a "studio" system. As a professional musician and a professional sound man, the entire idea of recording in a studio was to make your guitar or the drums sound like YOUR guitar, or your drums. When I stood in front of my Marshall tube amp cranked up to 11, I wanted that sound on my final product-be it a record or digital recording. (Pehaps I will discuss guitar tube amps and the reason for their existence at a later date). I cannot begin to explain how difficult that task actually is. I will say it is much easier now days. 

  Analog recoding studios really sounded good. 2" wide 24 track tape spinning at 30 inches per second. That is what it took to keep the tape noise level low and to get the most accurate reproduction AND each machine and tape brand had to be calibrated before each recording session to ensure accuracy. Remember, what you are listening to is what the muscian wants you to hear, so audiophiles and listeners do not even get a vote yet on sound quality. 
  The 2" tape 24 track  "Master"changed my guitar sound a bit. Then that was mixed down to stereo 1/2 track 1/4" tape format called "Half Track Master". That change my guitar sound a bit more, but still okay. The Half Track Master then is sent to a pressing plant to make the actual vinyl record. First you had to find a pay an expert "Master-er" to get to vinyl. This guy held you and your recording by the Nards. Why? Because analog vinyl technolgy was so screwed up. The Half track master that sounded great in the recording studio had to be Re-equalized by this record master-er to compensate for his equipment and how he knew it would change your recording-that you just spent $5000 on. It also had to be compressed (musically not like MP3-more later) so it would not violate groove and needle physical capabilities. If the Master-man sucked or did not care, so did your record. If you were a big time rock star (I was not), then you could hire Bob Ludwig, and he would make 5-6 wax pressings so the musician could hear what he changed and choose what they liked best. Me I had to take what I could get. In reality very few muscians ever approved of their vinyl recordings because they sounded so different from what they put down in the studio. 
  Yet old audiophiles with their Harmonically distorted tube amps and super crappy damping factors, needles that once again change the sound and wear the grooves down, changing the sound, and worst of all "colored" speakers tailored so any fool got a decent balance of bass and highs, claim superiority-calling this "warmth". 

  Digital Mixers, with digital recording and digital media by far produce the truest reproduction of what the muscian intended. What I discovered when I recorded digital was that what used to sound "full-warm" was in fact much less accurate. The "full-warm" sound that was missing was harmonic crap that filled up the spaces in the mix. What you could then do with digital is add more musical parts to fill the gaps and you could hear all  the detail. Listen to Led Zep records, then listen to a Led Zep CD which was taken straight from the Half Track stereo master. One thing that you will notice right away on CD is how much reverb is present on the CD that you cannot hear on a vinyl record. I used to think as I bought CDS that the CD has reverb added on top of the original recording. Not so, it is just that it is 2X louder because the vinyl cannot reproduce such a subtle sound. 

  Digital compression like MP3 .....is DATA compression that is uncompressed before it becomes ear capable analog. Records "Squashed" compressed music volume for needle physical reasons, Radio uses "infinite" volume compression-to appear louder than other stations and to keep from violating broadcast bandwidth-even worse....but hey, my brother thinks radio sounds great...he must be an audiophile..... 

  Also...On Monday I am going back to the recording studio..first time in 12 years. I am making the studio pull out and dust off their antique 1/2 track analog machine (an the studio had to calibrate it-as usual). I have about 10-11 songs that were mastered a on 1/2 track tape and guess what..I and going to burn some digital copies. My first album was so F-up by the vinyl record  that I look forward to hearing what I actually recorded in 1985...... 

  Merry Christmas Pattern dudes........ 

  Gray Fowler
  Senior Principal Chemical Engineer
  Radomes and Specialty Apertures
  Technical Staff Composites Engineering
  Raytheon 

        Bob Richards <bob at toprudder.com> 
        Sent by: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
        12/12/2007 08:41 PM 

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              Subject Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Gov'ment Job.......was: Re:  Off topic 

  IMHO, although the "warmth" of a tube amp is desireable to most people, it is, in fact, a type of distortion. 

  I have a collection of vinyl, but prefer to use CDs. Kinda hard to keep the needle from skipping while driving to work. :-) 

  Remember the one Led Zepplin song where the adjacent grooves "bled" over when the album was pressed? Never would have happened with digital. ;-) 

  Bob R. 

  twtaylor <twtaylor at ftc-i.net> wrote: 
  You've obviously never heard a good system then Matt.  J 

  Vinyl is still MUCH better than any CD. Also one must have tubes for the warmth that transistors can never match. 
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