[NSRCA-discussion] [Fwd: Proposal]

Thu Aug 23 03:35:29 AKDT 2007

You can't rank pilots nationally. It is meaningless data with a lot of noise. Different judges, different standards etc, etc, etc. especially on raw data. You can't assume everyone judges with the same level of proficiency.

Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:16:45 -0600From: jgghome at comcast.netTo: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.orgSubject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [Fwd: Proposal]
Rick,Thanks for the feedback. It really helps to know that you are reading it and thinking about it. My only intention here is to provide a starting point for discussion, not provide a finished take-it-or-leave-it product.I would like to clear up something on the National database. I didn't intend it as an enforcement tool for advancement. Clearly it could be used for that but I agree with you that most flyers move up by the rules or before. I did propose a rule change on advancement as proposal three but it does not require the database to implement.But, wouldn't you like to know how many flyers flew Masters this year? And that of those who actually flew in a contest this year you ranked much higher than the fourth quartile. Also that the Masters class gained 25 new members over last year? and only lost 5? Particularly for those in the bottom quarter of their class, encouragement and progress is sometimes difficult to see. However, when you see that you gained 10 places nationally in masters, you would be getting some positive feedback even if your placings in local contests didn't change. Of course, if you drop 10 places, you might have to look more closely at your equipment and practice routines. In either case, you got some feedback you didn't have before.Such a system will give the NSRCA leadership some timely tools to determine how pattern is doing as a whole( number of contests, total entrants, breakdown on those numbers by class, growing, shrinking, percentage of NSRCA members in the overall pattern community, etc).If we get enough entrants for the NATS again to split the sites, this system would make seeding a piece of cake.These are just a few of the reports we could get out of a contest database of raw scores. I do agree that there is a fair amount of work to be done on this and I have already signed up to help.I really appreciate your thoughtful responseJohnrichard wallace wrote: 
John  -

Love the idea of new ideas! thanks for contributing.

Gotta say though, I'm just not a fan of a national database for
recording Pattern results. I don't really understand what problem this
is intended to fix.

Of course, I'm in the apparent minority that believes that our current
self-policing system of advancement points is fine, ESPECIALLY now
that points only count for four years. After all, if a guy is smart
enough to assemble or acquire a pattern bird, and memorize all those
maneuvers, and fly them well enough to accumulate points in the first
place, well then, he should be able to handle the math to compute how
long he can stay in one of the three lower classes.
Given all that, then the only reason for external tracking of points
would be to make sure people don't cheat by staying in a lower class
too long.... I'm certainly not eager to be on the enforcement end of a
system within a hobby that's based on that premise...

Some thoughts:
1. At least in D1, for at least the last 8 years that I know of,
there's been no problem with guys sandbagging  or being trophy hogs.
Over the past 8 years the winners in the lower classes have moved up
whenever they've been required to, and sometimes before that. I don't
really see a reason to track nationally the results of local contests.

2. I don't know that I'd be really interested in seeing my 'national
ranking'  -- I've  found out enough at the Nats the past several
years... and 37/44 in Masters tells me enough about where I stand... !
;)

3. I'm absolutely against mandatory move ups for some percentage of
pilots based on some ranking. It's a hobby after all, and if Bobby
PatternGuy wants to stay in Advanced and fly a couple of contests each
year, then I say let him! I suspect we'd recognize a sandbagger... and
on the District website the finishing places for every competitor in
every contest of the year is posted for all to see. Anyone who THINKS
there's an issue is free to do the math on anyone they want.

and one more thing - do we have any volunteers for setting up and
adminstering this national system? That's not a trivial question or
issue, especially in a world where (at least some) NSRCA officers are
in their positions not because they sought the job in order to be in
charge of stuff, but because there was a necessary job to be done, and
no one else was willing to step up to do it... I do the Champs
standings for my District and mostly enjoy it, but it IS a manual
process. Understand about hooks to automated scoring systems like
PACSS, but it'll still take initial work and sustainment and then
fixes to keep it going at the national level... and there are still
places around the country that still do contest scoring manually...

Agree about helping Sportsman and maybe Intermediates be mentored at
contests- we usually don't have a formal system for that, and more
would certainly be better.

Also am in violent agreement about the need to grow Pattern at the
grass-roots level one new guy at a time - and most of us need to plow
that field more thoroughly too.

Good stuff - keep it coming!

Rick

On 8/22/07, John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net> wrote:

Thanks, Ken. Maybe we could raise even more money by removing pilots from
the national database so they can fly under the radar. :-)

 I also really liked what Mark had to say about the local marketing of
NSRCA. I remember those days. Having a member at each contest with some
stray K-Factors, some flyers about "what the NSRCA does for you" and the
gift of gab would go a long way towards gaining new members.
How about a trophy for "most improved flyer" . Of course we would need the
national database :-)  to figure out who that might be.

John

Ken Thompson wrote:
John,

I've studied your proposals and I honestly don't see any real downsides, not
that I expected to:-)
The only major problem I have is, with the national database, other pilots
would be able to see my many downfalls, before the contest.

Nicely done,

Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: John Gayer
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 7:12 PM
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] [Fwd: Proposal]

I'd like to present three proposals that might appeal to a few if not the
many....
Modified from the original proposal . Apparently not many saw it. The first
one has been added
Comments?
John
NSRCA 632

Revive the practice of assigning mentors to Sportsman and Intermediate
flyers

At contests, assign an experienced competitor to mentor, call and advise the
Sportsman/ Intermediate flyers. This is nothing new, but should be a part of
every contest. We should try to provide a connection that will last past the
contest.
As I see it, there are four issues that drasticaly affect the ability of
these flyers to compete effectively: aircraft trimming, execessive throws,
wings level and centering(also known as flying the airplane, not letting the
airplane fly you).
These flyers have shown the initiative to come out and compete. We owe them
(and ourselves) all the help we can throw at them.

Create a National Database for Pattern

The database must contain the raw scores of all flights for all competitors
by class. The only thing normalized scores are good for is finding the right
 finish order for each class at a contest. Raw scores are much better for
comparing results even at a contest. For example I finish round one with a
930 and round two with a 985, both to competitor A. Now did I fly a lot
better in round two(I thought I did)  or did competitor A flop a stall turn
in the figure M in round 2.
Anyway once you have the raw scores by competitor and class, you can do the
following:

Create a National Ranking for each class based on average points per
maneuver. Once this is in place and on line, we will have a reason for
pattern competitors to join NSRCA. you can't tell me that there wouldn't be
a lot of interest in seeing who is hot around the country and how you stack
up against the competition. I know, the judging isn't always equal but
that's always been true and we have to live with it.
The data available on each competitor would include contests entered,
placing, advance points earned. The districts could extract whatever data is
required to ascertain the district champions. We could archive previous
years as well.
Other ways to specify advancement in class become available, percentage of
average FAI score, even eventually moving the 10 top-rated pilots up a
class. Possibilities are endless when you have the data.
Since the database would only be open to NSRCA members, if you want to track
your National standing, joining NSRCA would be a must. If you want to see
what the guy nobody heard of that just rolled in from out of district has
accomplished, look him up. We've been looking for reasons  to join NSRCA, I
feel this is one that could be big and would be worth some investment in
time and money. I would be willing to help with such a project although I
don't feel like I could take it on by myself.

Redirect the focus to our international team competition through
modification of the advancement system

Modify the advancement process to be consistent through all classes from
Sportsman through to F3A. See section two for possible advancement criteria
Advancement can be forced by the advancement criteria(see section 2) or
voluntary.
The first year in a new and higher class is an option year. At the end of
the option year you can downselect one class for any reason. This has the
advantage of being able to try out the higher class for a year without
committing your entire pattern career. If you discover that the next class
is beyond your means( time, money or talent) then you option down the
following year. If you absolutely refuse to fly your new class, then perhaps
you could use the time and money to reintroduce your self to your wife,
girlfriend, etc. If you need a goal for the year, focus on making your
rudder commands instinctive, learn to fly a helicopter, learn to fly rolling
circles. You would probably come back a better pattern flyer than when you
left.

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