[NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? -->Personal dilemma, what to do next season

Thu Aug 16 12:34:46 AKDT 2007

Sorry typo, One right answer won't stop half the population from having an 
opinion.

Matt
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "R. LIPRIE" <RLIPRIE at centurytel.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class 
selection? -->Personal dilemma, what to do next season

> lol, One right answer want stop half the population from having an 
> opinion.
> lol
>
> Matt
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <glmiller3 at suddenlink.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 3:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? -->
> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>
>
>> Pete,
>>
>> That was ME not Glen.  I apologize to you and anyone else that thinks 
>> that
>> statement was elitist.  I only fly intermediate and I've tried to stay 
>> out
>> of this conversation because I don't see a problem with Masters and FAI 
>> as
>> it stands and I won't have a "dog in the hunt"  for many years, if ever.
>> I do know Glen, and I've met Arch and several other D6 Masters and FAI
>> pilots and I take umbridge when someone who apparently doesn't know them,
>> doesn't fly against them and has little experience in Pattern competition
>> in general impunes their character and motives.
>>
>> Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I personally don't think
>> everyone's opinion is equally informed or valid.   As I said, I'd love to
>> see Glen defend his Masters Championship, but if he decides that he has
>> the time and desire to change to FAI, I'll enjoy watching just as much
>> flying P0X as I do watching him fly Masters.
>>
>> Lets talk about something else that I can voice a completely uninformed
>> and strongly held opinion about<G>!
>>
>> George
>>
>> ---- Pete Cosky <pcosky at comcast.net> wrote:
>>> >I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
>>> >Sportsman's
>>> >comments keep you from defending your Masters National Championship. <
>>>
>>> Glen,
>>>
>>> I am sure you didn't mean anything by it, but comments like that cause
>>> people to think that pattern pilots are elitists. I don't care who a
>>> person
>>> is or if they even fly pattern at all; everyone is entitled to their
>>> opinion. I do not agree with Fred, but I sure will let him express his
>>> opinion without casting dispersions on him or his current class.
>>>
>>> We want to not only keep the people we have, including sportsman, but
>>> attract new blood and in my opinion making comments like the one above
>>> does
>>> nothing to help the sport.
>>>
>>> Just my opinion.
>>>
>>> Pete
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: <glmiller3 at suddenlink.net>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:00
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? -->
>>> Personal dilemma, what to do next season
>>>
>>>
>>> > Glen,
>>> >
>>> > I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie
>>> > Sportsman's
>>> > comments keep you from defending your Masters National Championship. 
>>> > I
>>> > love watching you fly and frankly, I hope that you'll still be in
>>> > Masters
>>> > when and/or if I ever get there to fly against you.
>>> >
>>> > I've deleted several messages before I sent them to this thread 
>>> > because
>>> > I
>>> > didn't want to add fuel to the fire, but I'm really tired of people
>>> > trying
>>> > to fix a problem that doesn't exist.  Masters is the top of the AMA
>>> > pyramid and FAI is the international competition.  There isn't a real
>>> > problem with people sandbagging - at least none that I've seen in D6
>>> > this
>>> > year.  So lets get over this and get on with having fun!
>>> >
>>> > I don't see any of the guys that you are actually competing against
>>> > that
>>> > have a problem with you defending your title!  If you want to go FAI,
>>> > then
>>> > please do, but make it your decision and of course you can always fly
>>> > Masters AND FAI at different contests.
>>> >
>>> > On a different note, if your cruise gets rained out by the storms
>>> > headed
>>> > for the Gulf- I hope that you'll make it over to our contest<G>!
>>> >
>>> > George
>>> >
>>> > ---- Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com> wrote:
>>> >> Wow -- this thread and others has become very personal and packed 
>>> >> with
>>> >> emotionally based comments.
>>> >>
>>> >> My recent success at the NATS has become bitter-sweet full of highs
>>> >> and
>>> >> lows
>>> >> on what I should do next.  The rules state that I can return to the
>>> >> NATS
>>> >> and
>>> >> defend my National Championship if I so desire.  I'm asking myself is
>>> >> that
>>> >> such a bad thing.  Well a few have voiced their opinions that it 
>>> >> would
>>> >> be.
>>> >> I'm wondering if that is a personal feeling or are they thinking
>>> >> what's
>>> >> good
>>> >> for the pattern community as a whole?
>>> >>
>>> >> My goals for the sport are simple. First to have fun competing, this
>>> >> includes giving back to the sport in some manner.  Second is to be as
>>> >> competitive as I can.
>>> >>
>>> >> Giving back falls in a couple of categories:
>>> >> 1) Sharing my knowledge and experience with others to help them have
>>> >> fun
>>> >> and
>>> >> be competitive in this sport.
>>> >> 2) Work with equipment supplier/manufacture to develop and promote
>>> >> their
>>> >> product offerings to the pattern community for us to enjoy.
>>> >>
>>> >> The question I ask myself is can I do both if I move to FAI?  The
>>> >> short
>>> >> answer is yes, however what influence would I have if I was a middle
>>> >> of
>>> >> the
>>> >> pack FAI competitor?  IMHO top level Masters competitors should have
>>> >> influence on equipments trends.  Here in the US we are fortunate to
>>> >> have
>>> >> a
>>> >> large group of national level competitors who would benefit from
>>> >> having
>>> >> more
>>> >> options and diversity in their equipment choices.  From my vantage
>>> >> point
>>> >> currently only the top FAI class flyers world wide have the most
>>> >> influence
>>> >> over the market.
>>> >>
>>> >> Many of us (me included) buy the exact equipment the top FAI
>>> >> competitors
>>> >> use
>>> >> to win their respective National events or the Worlds.  I feel there
>>> >> is
>>> >> an
>>> >> opportunity for the top US Masters competitors to have a similar
>>> >> effect.
>>> >> A
>>> >> good example of this is the collaboration between Hester and 
>>> >> Stafford.
>>> >> Many
>>> >> will benefit from having an obtainable design manufactured here in 
>>> >> the
>>> >> US
>>> >> that's competitive against any of the foreign import designs
>>> >> especially
>>> >> at
>>> >> the Masters level.
>>> >>
>>> >> My decision on what to do next season is still pending. If I choose 
>>> >> to
>>> >> return to Masters next season I asked not to be viewed as a 
>>> >> sandbagger
>>> >> but
>>> >> as one who is for bettering the quality and enjoyment of the sport.
>>> >>
>>> >> ~Glen
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>> >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Mike
>>> >> Hester
>>> >> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:01 AM
>>> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
>>> >>
>>> >> Well, I'm about to go out the door and do that novel thing we call
>>> >> "flying"
>>> >> (instead of typing). So, I'll be brief for now.
>>> >>
>>> >> You just blatantly called Arch Stafford a "sandbagger" because he 
>>> >> said
>>> >> his
>>> >> goal was to win the nats in masters. You're right that it may or may
>>> >> not
>>> >> ever happen, and he knows this all too well. You need practice, 
>>> >> skill,
>>> >> the
>>> >> proper equipment, coaching, and good old fashioned luck. He's
>>> >> certainly
>>> >> capable of it.
>>> >>
>>> >> Arch is right where he belongs, whether you like it or not, and
>>> >> whether
>>> >> you
>>> >> agree or not. Have you ever seen him fly? I have, and he's a masters
>>> >> pilot.
>>> >> One of the best. he got there by many many years of hard work and
>>> >> paying
>>> >> his
>>> >>
>>> >> dues. Yep he could fly FAI if he chose to, but to fly FAI on a
>>> >> national
>>> >> level requires a LOT of time that most people simply don't have. You
>>> >> can't
>>> >> appreciate the difference until you try it yourself, in competition,
>>> >> not
>>> >> at
>>> >> the practice field. it's DIFFERENT. The scoring is different, the
>>> >> manuevers
>>> >> are different, etc.
>>> >>
>>> >> Like it or not, masters IS a destination class and I am almost 100%
>>> >> positive
>>> >>
>>> >> that will not change. I also believe it should stay this way. FAI is 
>>> >> a
>>> >> choice, and I like choices. I don't hear any MASTERS pilots
>>> >> complaining
>>> >> about Arch or Glen or ?????? No, they like the competition, and they
>>> >> like
>>> >> them as people.
>>> >>
>>> >> Arch is a friend of mine and I sponsor him. There's a reason for 
>>> >> that.
>>> >> I'd
>>> >> break my back to help that guy, why? Because he'd do...and does...the
>>> >> same
>>> >> for me, or anybody else. Calling any masters pilot a sandbagger is
>>> >> unproductive, provocative and uncalled for. When their life and thier
>>> >> own
>>> >> goals dictate the decision to move into FAI, let THEM make that
>>> >> decision.
>>> >> You want to kill pattern for good? Make long time masters pilots have
>>> >> to
>>> >> move into FAI. It ain't gonna work.
>>> >>
>>> >> -Mike
>>> >>
>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:19 PM
>>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> > Well...
>>> >> >
>>> >> > He is the one who proclaimed that he was going to stay in the class
>>> >> > until
>>> >> > he
>>> >> > won a particular event... which how many people have EVER won?  Out
>>> >> > of
>>> >> > how
>>> >> > many who have competed?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Sorry... the world does not owe anyone any particular trophy.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > You say he's second best... maybe thats the best he ever gets.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Every other competitor who goes to the NATS and flys in Masters
>>> >> > wants
>>> >> > to
>>> >> > be
>>> >> > the best too.  Most will NEVER make it.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Most would be damn glad to be called second best in this sport...
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Reality is not politically correct.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > This is not the special olympics where everyone gets the same
>>> >> > trophy:
>>> >> > "Participant"
>>> >> >
>>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >> > From: "Matthew Frederick" <mjfrederick at cox.net>
>>> >> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:17 PM
>>> >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class 
>>> >> > selection?
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> Fred,
>>> >> >> The person who made the comment about not moving up until winning
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >> Nats
>>> >> >> was Arch Stafford. He's a very nice guy, and according to the Nats
>>> >> >> finish
>>> >> >> this year, he's probably the second-best Masters pilot in the
>>> >> >> nation.
>>> >> >> He
>>> >> >> wants to be the best before he moves up to F3A, it's a personal
>>> >> >> goal
>>> >> >> he
>>> >> >> has
>>> >> >> set and well within the bounds of the rules. Having met Arch, and
>>> >> >> knowing
>>> >> >> what a decent guy he is, I frankly take offense at you blatantly
>>> >> >> calling
>>> >> >> him
>>> >> >> out as a sandbagger. I don't know one person who flys Masters in 
>>> >> >> D6
>>> >> >> who
>>> >> >> would call him that, and those are the people he competes with on 
>>> >> >> a
>>> >> >> regular
>>> >> >> basis... There is currently no relevant points accumulation in
>>> >> >> Masters
>>> >> >> other
>>> >> >> than for district championships as it is the highest level of AMA
>>> >> >> Pattern.
>>> >> >> I
>>> >> >> completely agree with the point someone else made that stated we
>>> >> >> should
>>> >> >> not
>>> >> >> force someone to a level of competition that is out of the control
>>> >> >> of
>>> >> >> the
>>> >> >> AMA Competition Regs. If I were ever in a situation that forced me
>>> >> >> to
>>> >> >> move
>>> >> >> into F3A competition, I'd probably stop flying pattern. Full
>>> >> >> turnaround
>>> >> >> patterns was a hard enough pill to swallow. F3A has too many
>>> >> >> maneuvers
>>> >> >> that,
>>> >> >> while very beautiful when performed well, I don't personally
>>> >> >> consider
>>> >> >> to
>>> >> >> be
>>> >> >> precision aerobatics. Snaps and spins are enough of a stretch.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Matt
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >> >> From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>> >> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:56 PM
>>> >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>> >> >> selection?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>> No sour grapes here about not being able to win...  I don't ever
>>> >> >>> expect
>>> >> >>> to
>>> >> >>> accumulate the points needed to force advancement from Sportsman.
>>> >> >>> The
>>> >> >>> hand-eye coordination just isn't there.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's only 
>>> >> >>> 2
>>> >> >>> others
>>> >> >>> flying.  I'm just in Pattern for the flight discipline... and to
>>> >> >>> be
>>> >> >>> around
>>> >> >>> people who can help me quit breaking airplanes.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> I will probably move to Intermediate next year.. becaue I have
>>> >> >>> learned
>>> >> >>> almost as much as I can from the Sportman sequence.... I'll place
>>> >> >>> DEAD
>>> >> >>> LAST
>>> >> >>> FOREVER.  I'll fly at the NATS in about 3 or 4 years too.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> I do see the hypocracy of people complaining about not being
>>> >> >>> competitive
>>> >> >>> if
>>> >> >>> they move up... and sitting firmly in the lower class for years 
>>> >> >>> so
>>> >> >>> they
>>> >> >>> can
>>> >> >>> always win...
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> "I won't move up until I WIN the NATS" is why they came up with
>>> >> >>> the
>>> >> >>> point
>>> >> >>> system to force people to move up... sandbagger.  (not even
>>> >> >>> bothering
>>> >> >>> to
>>> >> >>> look up who made the referenced post...)
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's only 
>>> >> >>> 2
>>> >> >>> others
>>> >> >>> flying.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> I take offense at rules that are unfair.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> I take offense at people who revise the rules to suit thier
>>> >> >>> personal
>>> >> >>> agendas.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> >> >>> From: <seefo at san.rr.com>
>>> >> >>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:40 PM
>>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>> >> >>> selection?
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>>I know Glen.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> My question was more rhetorical than anything else, and I really
>>> >> >>>> just
>>> >> >>>> put it out there to try to clarify the issue. There seems to be 
>>> >> >>>> a
>>> >> >>>> division amongst people who want Masters to be that stepping
>>> >> >>>> stone
>>> >> >>>> class verses those who want Masters to be a destination all by
>>> >> >>>> itself
>>> >> >>>> (which it currently is).
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> I do think the idea of a progression rule whereby a pilot who
>>> >> >>>> does
>>> >> >>>> not
>>> >> >>>> meet a given criteria has the option of moving down. I 
>>> >> >>>> personally
>>> >> >>>> like
>>> >> >>>> the 'qualification' bar idea. For example, a pilot moves up to
>>> >> >>>> Masters
>>> >> >>>> from Advanced. In their 1st contest, if they are unable to
>>> >> >>>> achieve
>>> >> >>>> an
>>> >> >>>> AVERAGE normalized score of at least 800, they are given the
>>> >> >>>> option
>>> >> >>>> of
>>> >> >>>> moving back to Advanced. The 800 number is arbitrary and used 
>>> >> >>>> for
>>> >> >>>> example only.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> I guess my biggest problem with these threads, is they give me a
>>> >> >>>> big
>>> >> >>>> sense of sour grapes from people as I read them talk continually
>>> >> >>>> about
>>> >> >>>> not being able to win. Last I checked this was competition, and
>>> >> >>>> if
>>> >> >>>> you
>>> >> >>>> want to win, you perfect your own flying until you can do it
>>> >> >>>> better
>>> >> >>>> than everyone else. You don't tell the guy beating you to go 
>>> >> >>>> play
>>> >> >>>> somewhere else so you can feel good about yourself.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Of course I could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the 1st
>>> >> >>>> time.
>>> >> >>>> (just ask my wife)
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> -Doug
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >> >>>> From: Glen Watson <gwatson11 at houston.rr.com>
>>> >> >>>> Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:24 pm
>>> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>> >> >>>> selection?
>>> >> >>>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>>> There is no mandatory advancement from Masters...
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>>>> The following was copied from the current AMA rulebook...
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>>>> 8.2.5. There is no mandatory advancement into FAI from the
>>> >> >>>>> Masters
>>> >> >>>>> class.Contestants may enter their current AMA class or the FAI
>>> >> >>>>> class at any
>>> >> >>>>> contest but not both.
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>>>> ~Glen
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> >>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>> >> >>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>> >> >>>>> seefo at san.rr.com
>>> >> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:51 PM
>>> >> >>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>> >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
>>> >> >>>>> selection?
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>>>> It seems to me the real question that must be answered (yet
>>> >> >>>>> again)
>>> >> >>>> is:
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>>>> Is Masters a destination class or not?
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>>>> -Doug
>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> >> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> >> >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> >> >>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>> >> >>>>>
>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >> >>>>
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>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >> > _______________________________________________
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>>> >> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> >> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>> >> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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>>>
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