[NSRCA-discussion] Partner set-up question

Thu Oct 19 19:09:31 AKDT 2006

Well George, the only empirical results I have to go on is from lowering the
stab on the Eclipse and then moving it up. After I moved the horizontal stab
the airplane slightly pitched and I must admit I don't remember which way.
The adjustments I made were about a turn on the wing adjusters and I moved
the two cell lithium pack from in front of the tank to behind the tank.
Before I moved the stab up I had 6% and 10% elevator mix with rudder. What
really bothered me was a friend of mine built an Eclipse and put his stab in
the stock position and he was not having pitch problems. The ironic thing is
he was the person that told me to lower it to begin with. 

I understand that what works for one may not work for another but I really
appreciate hearing your experience and opinion. We may move the wing and
stab on a Genesis to match the measurements I received from Tom Koenig and I
will let you know the out come.   Thanks again, Claude.

  _____  

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of george w.
kennie
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:58 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Partner set-up question

Claude,

I have to confess that most of my opinions are based solely on the empiricle
results of building my own designs and finding out through experience what
works. I'm sure you're aware that "what works" for one individual is not
always going to be "what works" for someone else. To demonstrate, in my
opinion, the Eclipse you had with the stab at the 3/8" lowered point was as
close to neutral as is possible with the design. If you have a plane that
pulls with one rudder and pushes with the other that should be equalibrium
and the mixes to trim this out should be in the 2% bracket. You can't see 2%
!  When you raised the stab back up, the rudder that was pushing should have
seen an amplification of that problem, so I would have to conclude that your
"little adjustment" altered something additional to affect the aerodynamic
effects involved.

I also like to see a design that requires as close to zero mix as possible,
but as you are aware there are many many variables to overcome and
aesthetics can often

complicate desirable characteristics to the point of compromise. 

The numbers I quoted are nothing more than good sounding measurements based
on the limited info available. It really gets a lot more detailed than can
be resolved without actually seeing the airplane and doing some actual
measuring, however, the dihedral thing is probably a real close
guess.....and yes it's as tough to change as you think especially with plug
in wings. Maybe a new set of cores with the proper tube angles would be the
easiest......and yeah, I too like bantering the aerodynamic techie stuff
(not that I'm all that qualified).

Regards,

Georgie

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Claude Weimer <mailto:cweimer at tconl.com>  

To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:22 PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Partner set-up question

Hey George,

Are the dimensions you gave me what it takes to fix a Partner? Does a
Partner roll in knife edge? I thought the Partners were pretty good. I can
tell you I lowered the stab 3/8" on an Eclipse and it pushed to the gear
with left rudder and to the canopy with right rudder. Dave Guerin just
looked at the plane and said "the stab is too low" so I raised it the
diameter of the stab tube (about 7/16") and with a little adjustment it
fixed it. I don't have any mix in the airplane and it flies great. I am not
a fan of mixing problems out if you can fix it with out mixing. Any way this
experience really got me interested in these measurements. By the way how do
you go about adding dihedral to plug-in wings? Is it as difficult as I think
it is? Any way I find this kind of stuff more interesting than interrupting
the judging criteria of a figure M.

  _____  

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of george w.
kennie
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:02 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Partner set-up question

Hey Claude,

I don't know how extreme you want to get in fixing the flight anomolies of
your Genesis, but if it is indeed exactly the same as the Partner in
measurement details, then you can fix it by adding 5/32"dihedral on each
panel and lowering the stab to 33mm below the datum line.

G.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Claude Weimer <mailto:cweimer at tconl.com>  

To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:00 AM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Partner set-up question

Thanks for the effort Tom. I will tell you what I'm doing. A guy in our
group has a Genesis ARF and it does some weird things in knife edge. I think
the Genesis is a Partner copy and I want to see if the setup is the same.
Another one in our group is going to build a Genesis this winter and if the
Partner is set up different he is going to set it up like the Partner.
Roberts's plane, the guy with the Genesis ARF, will tuck to the gear and
roll right with left rudder. It is not as bad with the right rudder. The
guys in Chicago have Genesis and some are having problems also. So I thought
it would be interesting to compare the two planes. Thanks again, Claude.

  _____  

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Koenig, Tom
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:17 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Partner set-up question

Hello Claude and all,

These are the measurements I came up with. Please-if anyone has other data
it would be interesting to compare. First up nothing earth shattering as far
as the numbers are concerned. Quite standard actually.

Partner

With reference to the canopy floor.

Datum line/spinner center    56 mm below canopy line

wing center                        92 mm below canopy line( or 36 mm below
datum line)

stab center                        63 mm below canopy line( or 7 mm below
datum line)

Lazulite

With reference to the canopy floor.

Datum line/spinner center    56 mm below canopy line

wing center                        90 mm below canopy line( or 34 mm below
datum line)

stab center                       57 mm below canopy line( or 1 mm below
datum line)

I presume that with the stab center on the Lazulite, I may have made an
error in measurement and that the stab is actually located ON the datum
line( it was getting late!)

The models are actually very similar, with a bit of coaxing the Lazulite
Canopy will fit on a Partner and vice versa.

I have not compared 1/4 chord to 1/4 chord moments-but if these are wanted
I'll measure that up as well.

The Lazulite was disgustingly close ( by millimeters) to my own Merlin
design.I'm still kicking myself for the cash that was 'burnt'.

Hope it is of help.

Tom

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Claude Weimer
Sent: Tuesday, 17 October 2006 8:52 AM
To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Partner set-up question

Tom,

No one else has responded.  I would really appreciate if you could give me
the information. I can deal with metrics if that's what you use. 

Thanks, Claude

  _____  

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Koenig, Tom
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 4:20 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Partner set-up question

Claude,

Have you had any answers yet?

If not-I'll measure up my unbuilt one and see what the numbers are. I hope
they will make sense with the results from others?

Tom

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Claude Weimer
Sent: Monday, 16 October 2006 12:53 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Partner setup question

Can some one tell me the distance below the engine thrust line to the
centerline of the wing on the Partner? And I would also like to know the
distance above the wing centerline to the center of the horizontal stab.
Thanks, Claude. 

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