[NSRCA-discussion] Defensive Judging

Keith Black tkeithblack at gmail.com
Wed Nov 22 16:51:41 AKST 2006 

If I may be so bold as to summarize what I'm hearing from the opinions I've
read, including mine (with exception of Lance possibly... not sure).

Keep doing exactly what we're doing at both the local level and NATS level.
It's a good system and working fine.

Keith Black


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <jivey61 at bellsouth.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Defensive Judging


> I'm not Jim W either,but I would like to say about this hobby.... the
> judge.. flyer relationship is the result of many hours of studying and
> practice.Locally we know who we fly in front of and how they judge.Some
are
> tighter judges than others and we know this.We accept this.We are
fortunate
> in the southeast to have some very good high status flyers that judge and
> give their opinions on various aspects of this hobby.They act like normal
> people and don't think they are better than anyone else. Jason is one of
> them and when he speaks I listen like a sponge........   I tried to sneak
> the humpty 3/4 roll down(did a 1/4 roll down)  three times and he drew a
> circle 3 times,because a circle is easy to draw.hehe. I knew I did it when
> it happened. All this told me... that I needed to concentrate on what I
was
> doing and he was telling me this in his score. It got to be our joke
between
> us.  The moral of all this is read your raw scores and learn from them .
> They were given for a reason and you are the beneficiary.
> If you have judges on the local level that will talk to you after the
flight
> ask them, what they saw, and why they did what they did. If they can
> remember they will tell you. This is especially needed in the lower
levels.
> When I started... the only coaching or input I got was at the contests I
> went to and that is the hard way to learn.
> The business of defensive judging and initials on scoresheets on the local
> level is mute.We know who we fly in front of. At the Nats as RVP stated
the
> initials are used for other identity reasons and are necessary.
> I won't go into my Nats judging experiences here.
>
> Jim Ivey
>
> Jim Ivey
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "JShulman" <jshulman at cfl.rr.com>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 10:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Defensive Judging
>
>
> > I'm not JimW, but I know there have been a few contests where we figure
> out
> > what judges gave what scores, if we don't already know who did. I'm open
> to
> > telling anyone what judge I am. Ask Jim Ivey if I'm afraid to give a
> > zero...lol. Doesn't seem to be an issue here, that I've seen...
> >
> > One thing that I am glad to see here in D3 is that if there is an issue,
> > then we will spend some time and figure out how to correct it. At
> > Andersonville we discussed snaps and how they should be done after there
> was
> > some "discussion" about what looks right and what looks wrong.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Jason
> > www.jasonshulman.com
> > www.shulmanaviation.com
> > www.composite-arf.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Lance Van
> > Nostrand
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 10:23 PM
> > To: NSRCA Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Defensive Judging
> >
> >
> > Keith,
> > This is a fun hobby.  I submit that if you are afraid to give an
accurate
> > score that you witnessed then you are doing a disservice.  At a local
> > contest you are kidding yourself if you think you have any anonymity.
> > Instead of pretending its there, some cool discussion will raise the
level
> > of pilot and judge.  One big difference between a local and Nats is that
> at
> > a local its highly likely that we will fly in front of the same person
> that
> > we'll later judge.  If there were some kind of inappropriate judging
going
> > on, this is a natural damper.  Since this damper is not in place at the
> > Nats, that might change the checks and balances.
> >
> > I don't see anyone joining this discussion.  Even JimW has not
responded.
> I
> > think we are in "no man's land".  Thanks for responding.
> >
> > --Lance
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Keith Black" <tkeithblack at gmail.com>
> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 10:22 PM
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Defensive Judging
> >
> >
> > > Lance, you make some very good points. For me this is a tough issue
with
> > > two
> > > very strong arguments on opposite sides.
> > >
> > > Simply put:
> > >
> > > Pro>  If judges initials score sheets they'll be more conscientious
> about
> > > their judging and less incline to gouge someone they don't like.
> > >
> > > Con> If judges initial score sheets they may be hesitant to give
> deserved
> > > low scores to big name pilots and may fear retribution when they fly.
> > >
> > > I think the Con is probably the more persuasive of these two points,
at
> > > least at the NATS level, because when judges are required to put their
> > > judge
> > > number they still know they're accountable, but will be comfortable
> giving
> > > deserved low scores without fear of retribution.  Also, at NATS if you
> see
> > > Joe Blow's name by some really low scores you receive and you don't
know
> > > Joe
> > > Blow human nature is to develop a bit of a grudge against Joe Blow. We
> > > don't
> > > need this kind of ill will in our community. I for one tried not to
pay
> > > attention to who was in the judges' chair at NATS because I didn't
want
> to
> > > subconsciously start associating my scores with individuals.
> > >
> > > At the local contest most people know each other and feel more
> comfortable
> > > discussing things so this is a different story. I initial my scores at
> > > local
> > > contests (when I remember). However, if a judge feels uncomfortable
that
> > > Joe
> > > Bigshot may grill them if they give a low score I don't think the
judge
> > > should have to give his initials as long as a judge number is used.
> > >
> > > Keith
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
> > > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > > Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 8:22 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Defensive Judging
> > >
> > >
> > >> Del,
> > >> This is unfortunate and I've had a similar experience.  Still,
> arranging
> > > our
> > >> rules to avoid behavior that we all know is inappropriate is a
> > >> disservice.
> > >> I would propose that anyone motivated to discuss CHANGING a score
> should
> > > go
> > >> through the CD.  But there are other valid motivations:
> > >> 1. To learn what downgrades, either specifically or in general terms,
> > >> were
> > >> applied
> > >> 2. to understand a judges perspective and what they consider very
> > > important
> > >> (weight heavily)
> > >> 3. others...
> > >>
> > >> This is not to question a score but to both learn what the pilot can
do
> > >> to
> > >> improve and (of equal importance) to learn how other judges approach
> the
> > >> evaluation.  One thing I've noticed is that the "judgement" part of
> > > judging
> > >> can influence scores and these flying defects are often just as
> > > controllable
> > >> as the hard and fast rules.  I recently was downgraded by a judge,
whom
> I
> > >> had a very friendly conversation with, because my center manuvers
were
> > >> not
> > >> at the same altitude.  Many may say that this should not have been
> > >> downgraded, but this judges point was that the pilot that controls
the
> > >> altitude better should get the better score.  Don't flame on this
rules
> > >> point!  My point is that knowing that this is a perspective of some
> > > judges,
> > >> and it is a thing that I can work on without disadvantaging myself
was
> > > very
> > >> valuable information.
> > >>
> > >> We need to remember this is a fun hobby.  If we are not disputing a
> > >> score,
> > >> we need to approach judge feedback with modesty and a sense of humor.
> It
> > > is
> > >> a time of gathering information, not of making a counterpoint.  Many
> > >> times
> > > a
> > >> judge just can't remember, but I'm sure that they will remember more
if
> > > they
> > >> know there will be no negative counterpoint.  I would like to see
judge
> > >> initials on the bottom of the score sheets, given these guidelines.
> > >>
> > >> --Lance
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Del K. Rykert" <drykert2 at rochester.rr.com>
> > >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 1:31 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Defensive Judging
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >I still remember the confrontation I experienced by the father of a
> > >> >local
> > >> > competitor taking me to task on a maneuver that I gigged harshly
and
> > >> > the
> > >> > ensuing 30 minute debate with my finally pulling out my rule book
and
> > >> > showing him the paragraph and specific reasons his son received the
> > >> > downgrades. Course he didn't agree the wings weren't level and the
> > >> > model
> > >> > had
> > >> > noticeable climb when it should have been minor or no climb before
> > >> > entry
> > >> > to
> > >> > spin. Wind was down the runway. Airplane fell out of spin in last
1/4
> > >> > of
> > >> > spin into spiral.
> > >> >    Yes I could have reported this to the CD and made a bad
situation
> > >> > worse.
> > >> > How does that encourage participation in the sport?  It did ruin
the
> > > rest
> > >> > of
> > >> > my flights as a contestant and left me with taste of why do I want
to
> > >> > subject myself to this kind of abuse.
> > >> >    Some in the sport are wound to tightly and will use any excuse
to
> > >> > try
> > >> > to
> > >> > increase their edge.  Thankfully it is the smallest of minorities
but
> > >> > it
> > >> > does still exist. For this reason I always have my rule book handy
> > >> > whenever
> > >> > I go to a contest and might be asked to judge. Shame the sport has
> been
> > >> > reduced for some of us as defensive judging.
> > >> >
> > >> >                 Del
> > >> >          nsrca - 473
> > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > From: "george w. kennie" <geobet at gis.net>
> > >> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> > Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 12:57 PM
> > >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge
> transparency
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >> In spite of the fact that when I sit in the chair I ALWAYS initial
> the
> > >> >> score
> > >> >> sheet at district events, I can state from experience that it's
> > > probably
> > >> >> not
> > >> >> a good idea and I feel that the reason it's probably not done at
the
> > > Nats
> > >> >> is
> > >> >> due to a "been there, done that" previous learning experience.
> > >> >> There is just too much competitive passion on the part of
individual
> > >> >> pilots
> > >> >> to avoid personal conflicts escalating into personality wars with
> long
> > >> >> lasting repercussions.
> > >> >> Think about it,.........how many times have you heard it expressed
> > >> >> that
> > > a
> > >> >> particular judge has a reputation as a tough or BAD judge?
> > >> >> Too much knowledge can generate factional devisiveness which is
> > > probably
> > >> >> best avoided.
> > >> >> G.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> >> From: "Anthony Romano" <anthonyr105 at hotmail.com>
> > >> >> To: <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> >> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:07 AM
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge
> > >> >> transparency
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> Hi Jim,
> > >> >>> Good points. There is an easy way to start this. Every time you
> judge
> > >> >>> legibly sign or initial your score sheets.
> > >> >>> To the conspirists, remember when questioning judges a little
> respect
> > >> >>> and
> > >> >>> courtesy goes a long way.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Anthony
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>>From: "Jim Woodward" <jim.woodward at schroth.com>
> > >> >>>>Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> >>>>To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> >>>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge
> > > transparency
> > >> >>>>Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 08:09:31 -0500
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>I think posting judges names along with the scores is more than a
> > >> >>>>fair
> > >> >>>>idea
> > >> >>>>and goes a long way toward increasing the transparency at a
> contest.
> > >> >>>>When
> > >> >>>>you increase the transparency, the "pilots" have a better
> > > understanding
> > >> >>>>and
> > >> >>>>good time.  When the pilots are happy, they come back to the
> contests
> > >> >>>>and
> > >> >>>>maybe bring someone with them.  If you notice, after a contest
when
> > > our
> > >> >>>>friend who did not makes it calls and asks, ". how was the
> contest,"
> > > the
> > >> >>>>next question is ". how was the judging."  Judging, or problems
> with
> > >> >>>>judging, is such an intrinsic part of the pattern experience that
> you
> > >> >>>>can't
> > >> >>>>separate it from the "description" of how the contest went.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>1. What is interesting is that the "flight" takes place in a
public
> > >> >>>>forum - anyone can see it.  As we watch it, more often or not it
is
> > >> >>>>watched
> > >> >>>>in small groups which include fellow class-competitors, or more
> > >> >>>>experienced
> > >> >>>>pilots pointing out to younger pilots errors to look out for.
> > >> >>>>2. The judges for the round are public information.  IE - you can
> > >> >>>>look
> > >> >>>>out on the flight line and see who is judging
> > >> >>>>3. The pilot for the round is public information.  IE - you can
> look
> > >> >>>>out on the flight line and see who is flying.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>Yet, "who" and "how" the scores were given remains a small
mystery.
> > >> >>>>A
> > >> >>>>lot
> > >> >>>>of folks do not want to be known as the guy who goes to the CD
and
> > > asks
> > >> >>>>questions about the scoring and such.  Or, is seen by their
fellow
> > >> >>>>competitors as being the CD hound.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>Judge Training:  Most judge training takes place in practice and
at
> > >> >>>>contests.  There is no better forum for judge training than the
> > > contest
> > >> >>>>environment.  When the tear sheets are posted for each round with
> > > judge
> > >> >>>>identification, you can go and ask ". I watched that and wondered
> why
> > >> >>>>you
> > >> >>>>gave it xyz score."  This is an incredibly valuable moment when
all
> > >> >>>>of
> > >> >>>>us
> > >> >>>>are gathered we do more to get the most out of it.  As it stands,
> > > after
> > >> >>>>the
> > >> >>>>round is posted the next comment is, ". well, I guess the judges
> > > didn't
> > >> >>>>catch that zero.. (and similar comments)."  These conversations
are
> > >> >>>>already
> > >> >>>>taking place at the contest.  Posting the tear sheets for
everyone
> > > would
> > >> >>>>bring these conversations into the open as a positive element of
> the
> > >> >>>>experience, and not add to the conspiracy theorists ammunition
> (every
> > >> >>>>district has a prime person/competitor who is a judging
conspiracy
> > >> >>>>theorists).
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>Last thing, there are two judges for every 1 pilot, thus, there
is
> > > 100%
> > >> >>>>more
> > >> >>>>judging work taking place than piloting work.  We are there to
fly,
> > > but
> > >> >>>>the
> > >> >>>>performance of the judges is every bit on display as the
> performance
> > > of
> > >> >>>>the
> > >> >>>>pilot.  In the US we also tally the judges performance and keep
> track
> > > of
> > >> >>>>them on the national scene.  Posting the tear sheets with judges
> > >> >>>>names
> > >> >>>>would
> > >> >>>>help this effort, allow for a GREAT training tool to be available
> to
> > > the
> > >> >>>>CD
> > >> >>>>and fellow pilots, and become a "self-correcting-tool" to those
> > > persons
> > >> >>>>who
> > >> >>>>to judge with bias (intentionally or not).  As a judge, at the
end
> of
> > >> >>>>the
> > >> >>>>round it would be great to know how my scores compared to the
other
> > >> >>>>judge.
> > >> >>>>Each judge could discuss the round.  When the tear sheets are
> posted
> > > in
> > >> >>>>the
> > >> >>>>open, it will "promote" this conversation and I believe, help on
> many
> > >> >>>>levels.  Also, if you as a judge know the scores and names will
be
> > >> >>>>posted
> > >> >>>>after a round, I bet a lot of judge-lazy behavior will go away,
> like
> > >> >>>>when
> > >> >>>>they/we have our head down and write scores, thus missing 30% or
> more
> > > of
> > >> >>>>maneuvers.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>Just some ideas.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>Jim W.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>   _____
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> > >> >>>>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> Wayne
> > >> >>>>Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 11:37 PM
> > >> >>>>To: NSRCA Mailing List
> > >> >>>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge
> > > transparency
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>Fred,
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>my point is post them...not leave loose tear sheets on a table
for
> > >> >>>>pilots
> > >> >>>>to
> > >> >>>>take away from the table. This has been the practice at the NATS.
> > >> >>>>They
> > >> >>>>need
> > >> >>>>to be posted in some way. Not just tossed as loose sheets for the
> > >> >>>>wind
> > >> >>>>and
> > >> >>>>pilots to remove from the public view
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>That is all my point was. I had a conversation with an FAI pilot
> back
> > >> >>>>after
> > >> >>>>the NATS and he has been advocating this the past 3 years yet
still
> > > not
> > >> >>>>happening.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>----- Original Message -----
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>From: Fred Huber <mailto:fhhuber at clearwire.net>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:13 PM
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge
> > > transparency
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>To me, "public" can be debated somewhat....
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>Its probably adequate to post them on a table where anyone WHO
> WANTS
> > > TO
> > >> >>>>can
> > >> >>>>see them.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>All the Pattern contests I have been to, the scores have been
taped
> > >> >>>>to
> > > a
> > >> >>>>table where anyone who wanted to look had access.  Good enough.
> > >> >>>>Don't
> > >> >>>>make
> > >> >>>>it harder than it has to be.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>----- Original Message -----
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>From: Wayne <mailto:Whinkle1024 at msn.com>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:21 PM
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge
> > > transparency
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>Public is not left on a table....Public is posted for the world
to
> > > see.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>check out the awesome job done by the Swiss at the last Euro
> Champs.
> > > Too
> > >> >>>>bad
> > >> >>>>we in the USA with more pattern flyers than anywhere else can't
get
> > > with
> > >> >>>>the
> > >> >>>>program.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>http://www.em06.ch/ranking_preliminary.asp
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>Wayne
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>----- Original Message -----
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>From: Lance Van <mailto:patterndude at comcast.net>  Nostrand
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 6:17 PM
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge
transparency
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>To all rule-meisters,
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>I know there are some on this list that have deep insight into
the
> > >> >>>>intent
> > >> >>>>and history of the F3A sporting code.  I hope to either get a
solid
> > >> >>>>answer
> > >> >>>>or pointed in the right direction.  This is not an idle request.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>Part 5.1.8 Marking - last sentence
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>The scores given by each judge for each competitor shall be made
> > > public
> > >> >>>>at
> > >> >>>>the end of each round of competition.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>What level of transparency is mandated?  Is it enough to report
the
> > >> >>>>scores
> > >> >>>>from judge 1-4 or is it expected that the identity of the judge
be
> > > known
> > >> >>>>as
> > >> >>>>well?
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>--Lance
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>   _____
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>_______________________________________________
> > >> >>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > >> >>>>NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > >> >>>>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>   _____
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>_______________________________________________
> > >> >>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > >> >>>>NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > >> >>>>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>   _____
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
> > >> >>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > >> >>>>Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.7/537 - Release Date:
> > >> >>>>11/17/2006
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>   _____
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>_______________________________________________
> > >> >>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > >> >>>>NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > >> >>>>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>>_______________________________________________
> > >> >>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > >> >>>>NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > >> >>>>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >> >>>
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