[NSRCA-discussion] Defensive Judging

Mon Nov 20 10:31:20 AKST 2006

I still remember the confrontation I experienced by the father of a local 
competitor taking me to task on a maneuver that I gigged harshly and the 
ensuing 30 minute debate with my finally pulling out my rule book and 
showing him the paragraph and specific reasons his son received the 
downgrades. Course he didn't agree the wings weren't level and the model had 
noticeable climb when it should have been minor or no climb before entry to 
spin. Wind was down the runway. Airplane fell out of spin in last 1/4 of 
spin into spiral.
    Yes I could have reported this to the CD and made a bad situation worse. 
How does that encourage participation in the sport?  It did ruin the rest of 
my flights as a contestant and left me with taste of why do I want to 
subject myself to this kind of abuse.
    Some in the sport are wound to tightly and will use any excuse to try to 
increase their edge.  Thankfully it is the smallest of minorities but it 
does still exist. For this reason I always have my rule book handy whenever 
I go to a contest and might be asked to judge. Shame the sport has been 
reduced for some of us as defensive judging.

                 Del
          nsrca - 473
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "george w. kennie" <geobet at gis.net>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge transparency


> In spite of the fact that when I sit in the chair I ALWAYS initial the 
> score
> sheet at district events, I can state from experience that it's probably 
> not
> a good idea and I feel that the reason it's probably not done at the Nats 
> is
> due to a "been there, done that" previous learning experience.
> There is just too much competitive passion on the part of individual 
> pilots
> to avoid personal conflicts escalating into personality wars with long
> lasting repercussions.
> Think about it,.........how many times have you heard it expressed that a
> particular judge has a reputation as a tough or BAD judge?
> Too much knowledge can generate factional devisiveness which is probably
> best avoided.
> G.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Anthony Romano" <anthonyr105 at hotmail.com>
> To: <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge transparency
>
>
>> Hi Jim,
>> Good points. There is an easy way to start this. Every time you judge
>> legibly sign or initial your score sheets.
>> To the conspirists, remember when questioning judges a little respect and
>> courtesy goes a long way.
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>>>From: "Jim Woodward" <jim.woodward at schroth.com>
>>>Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge transparency
>>>Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 08:09:31 -0500
>>>
>>>I think posting judges names along with the scores is more than a fair
>>>idea
>>>and goes a long way toward increasing the transparency at a contest. 
>>>When
>>>you increase the transparency, the "pilots" have a better understanding
>>>and
>>>good time.  When the pilots are happy, they come back to the contests and
>>>maybe bring someone with them.  If you notice, after a contest when our
>>>friend who did not makes it calls and asks, ". how was the contest," the
>>>next question is ". how was the judging."  Judging, or problems with
>>>judging, is such an intrinsic part of the pattern experience that you
>>>can't
>>>separate it from the "description" of how the contest went.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>1. What is interesting is that the "flight" takes place in a public
>>>forum - anyone can see it.  As we watch it, more often or not it is
>>>watched
>>>in small groups which include fellow class-competitors, or more
>>>experienced
>>>pilots pointing out to younger pilots errors to look out for.
>>>2. The judges for the round are public information.  IE - you can look
>>>out on the flight line and see who is judging
>>>3. The pilot for the round is public information.  IE - you can look
>>>out on the flight line and see who is flying.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Yet, "who" and "how" the scores were given remains a small mystery.  A 
>>>lot
>>>of folks do not want to be known as the guy who goes to the CD and asks
>>>questions about the scoring and such.  Or, is seen by their fellow
>>>competitors as being the CD hound.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Judge Training:  Most judge training takes place in practice and at
>>>contests.  There is no better forum for judge training than the contest
>>>environment.  When the tear sheets are posted for each round with judge
>>>identification, you can go and ask ". I watched that and wondered why you
>>>gave it xyz score."  This is an incredibly valuable moment when all of us
>>>are gathered we do more to get the most out of it.  As it stands, after
>>>the
>>>round is posted the next comment is, ". well, I guess the judges didn't
>>>catch that zero.. (and similar comments)."  These conversations are
>>>already
>>>taking place at the contest.  Posting the tear sheets for everyone would
>>>bring these conversations into the open as a positive element of the
>>>experience, and not add to the conspiracy theorists ammunition (every
>>>district has a prime person/competitor who is a judging conspiracy
>>>theorists).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Last thing, there are two judges for every 1 pilot, thus, there is 100%
>>>more
>>>judging work taking place than piloting work.  We are there to fly, but
>>>the
>>>performance of the judges is every bit on display as the performance of
>>>the
>>>pilot.  In the US we also tally the judges performance and keep track of
>>>them on the national scene.  Posting the tear sheets with judges names
>>>would
>>>help this effort, allow for a GREAT training tool to be available to the
>>>CD
>>>and fellow pilots, and become a "self-correcting-tool" to those persons
>>>who
>>>to judge with bias (intentionally or not).  As a judge, at the end of the
>>>round it would be great to know how my scores compared to the other 
>>>judge.
>>>Each judge could discuss the round.  When the tear sheets are posted in
>>>the
>>>open, it will "promote" this conversation and I believe, help on many
>>>levels.  Also, if you as a judge know the scores and names will be posted
>>>after a round, I bet a lot of judge-lazy behavior will go away, like when
>>>they/we have our head down and write scores, thus missing 30% or more of
>>>maneuvers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Just some ideas.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Jim W.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   _____
>>>
>>>From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Wayne
>>>Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 11:37 PM
>>>To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge transparency
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Fred,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>my point is post them...not leave loose tear sheets on a table for pilots
>>>to
>>>take away from the table. This has been the practice at the NATS. They
>>>need
>>>to be posted in some way. Not just tossed as loose sheets for the wind 
>>>and
>>>pilots to remove from the public view
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>That is all my point was. I had a conversation with an FAI pilot back
>>>after
>>>the NATS and he has been advocating this the past 3 years yet still not
>>>happening.
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>>From: Fred Huber <mailto:fhhuber at clearwire.net>
>>>
>>>To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>
>>>Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:13 PM
>>>
>>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge transparency
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>To me, "public" can be debated somewhat....
>>>
>>>Its probably adequate to post them on a table where anyone WHO WANTS TO
>>>can
>>>see them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>All the Pattern contests I have been to, the scores have been taped to a
>>>table where anyone who wanted to look had access.  Good enough.  Don't
>>>make
>>>it harder than it has to be.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>>From: Wayne <mailto:Whinkle1024 at msn.com>
>>>
>>>To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>
>>>Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:21 PM
>>>
>>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge transparency
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Public is not left on a table....Public is posted for the world to see.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>check out the awesome job done by the Swiss at the last Euro Champs. Too
>>>bad
>>>we in the USA with more pattern flyers than anywhere else can't get with
>>>the
>>>program.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.em06.ch/ranking_preliminary.asp
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Wayne
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>>From: Lance Van <mailto:patterndude at comcast.net>  Nostrand
>>>
>>>To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>
>>>Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 6:17 PM
>>>
>>>Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI sporting code on judge transparency
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>To all rule-meisters,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I know there are some on this list that have deep insight into the intent
>>>and history of the F3A sporting code.  I hope to either get a solid 
>>>answer
>>>or pointed in the right direction.  This is not an idle request.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Part 5.1.8 Marking - last sentence
>>>
>>>The scores given by each judge for each competitor shall be made public 
>>>at
>>>the end of each round of competition.
>>>
>>>What level of transparency is mandated?  Is it enough to report the 
>>>scores
>>>from judge 1-4 or is it expected that the identity of the judge be known
>>>as
>>>well?
>>>
>>>--Lance
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   _____
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>>
>>>   _____
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>>
>>>   _____
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>   _____
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>
>>
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>>>NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
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>>
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