[NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8

Tue Nov 14 07:06:55 AKST 2006

Glen, the way I read Lance's example was that the two separate maneuvers
were at a different base elevation, not that the entry and exit of each
particular maneuver differed. If the entry and exit of a single centered
maneuver is different then this definitely is a downgrade, unless the
maneuver is designed for entry and exit to be different, such as the 45 deg
snap.

Keith

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Glenn Hatfield" <randy10926 at comtekmail.com>
To: <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8

> entry and exit heights not being the same on a centered manuver is called
out in the AMA book as a downgrade.  The only real issue about it is how
much of a downgrade.
>
> Randy
>
> --- tkeithblack at gmail.com wrote:
>
> From: "Keith Black" <tkeithblack at gmail.com>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 00:07:32 -0600
>
> Looks like we're leaving the discussion regarding what happens in 'no
man's
> land' as your example has nothing to do with lines between two consecutive
> maneuvers. My deja vu was intended to switch to something that could be
> related to more readily to provoke thought and illustrate my point, it was
> supposed to be similar.
>
> My guess is that you're trying to bring smoothness and gracefulness into
> play with your question. I for one would give both maneuvers 10 and would
> not deduct for the height difference. Since the end maneuver is a height
> adjusting maneuver it seems perfectly acceptable to adjust the height of
the
> centered maneuver.
>
> I understand that there's an objective to fly all maneuvers a similar size
> and ideally position, but I've never heard anything concrete as to how to
> credit or debit for this. For me if someone flies the triangle perfect and
> the square perfect but at a 50' different base line they're still both
> getting 10's.
>
> That being said, a few weeks back I was posting arguments in favor of S&G.
> Unfortunately I'm not sure it's well enough defined for pilots to get all
> the credit they may deserve. The only way to truly credit for overall
> matched size, speed and positioning may be to have a separate score/judge
> viewing the sequence as a whole.
>
> Keith Black
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 11:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
>
>
> > Let me call the example, because yours is really just deja vu all over
> > again.
> >
> > The pilot performs two perfect center manuvers in a row.  What they are
> > doesn't matter but let's say they are the new triangle and then the
> > golfball.  The only thing is, the base altitude for each is 50ft
> different.
> > Should this get a lower score than another pilot that also flies the
same
> > manuvers also perfect but their base altitude is the same?
> >
> > --Lance
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Keith Black" <tkeithblack at gmail.com>
> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 10:54 PM
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> >
> >
> > >I completely disagree with you, this is not a S&G issue. In my example
I
> > > never said the drop in altitude wasn't smooth and graceful. In fact,
it
> > > may
> > > well have been the most graceful and smooth loss of altitude ever, but
> it
> > > still gets a downgrade based on geometry.
> > >
> > > New example:
> > >
> > > A pilot gets blown way too far in, so on the long line from the end of
> the
> > > humpty to the square eight the pilot very smoothly and gracefully
blends
> > > in
> > > rudder and moves the plane out about 75 yards. Fifteen meters prior to
> > > center this crafty flier adjusts his track and straightens the track
> out.
> > > You, however, being the attentive judge that you are notice this
sneaky
> > > adjustment and judge it how? And on what grounds?
> > >
> > > For me it's easy, you can't both fly a parallel track to the flight
line
> > > and
> > > adjust your distance from the flight line by 75 meters, that's bad
> > > geometry.
> > > Seems we teach the Sportsman this lesson in the two straight flight
> > > segments. For a 75 meter adjustment I'd probably take 1 point, maybe
> more
> > > depending on how dramatic the adjustment in distance looked.
> > >
> > > "But he straightened out 15 meters before the start of the square",
you
> > > say,
> > > "what about the 'no man's land'.
> > >
> > > "Don't care", I say, "we fly a sequence, not a lot of individual
> > > maneuvers.
> > > There is no 'no man's land'."
> > >
> > > Again I'm more than willing to change the way I judge if Don or the
> > > judging
> > > committee explain that I'm wrong, after all, what do I know.
> > >
> > > Keith Black
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
> > > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > > Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 6:43 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> > >
> > >
> > >> 1/2 pt S&G
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> > >> From: "Keith Black" <tkeithblack at gmail.com>
> > >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 11:32 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >I agree that the downgrade is lenient, this didn't escape my
> attention.
> > >> > However, I'm not sure by what other criteria/rule one would
downgrade
> a
> > >> > loss
> > >> > of altitude.  Perhaps Don could help here.
> > >> >
> > >> > Keep in mind that the 15 foot drop you mention may not appear as
much
> > >> > of
> > > a
> > >> > drop depending on the height of the plane and box positioning
during
> > >> > the
> > >> > drop. I'll be honest, right or wrong, if I'm in the chair and I see
a
> > >> > noticeable drop I'll take 1/2 point, if it's really obvious drop
I'd
> > > take
> > >> > 1
> > >> > pt. Maybe I'm wrong, this is a good time to set me straight and
level
> > > ;-)
> > >> > .
> > >> >
> > >> > OK Lance, so if you're judging Sportsman and you see the plane drop
> 20
> > >> > feet
> > >> > on the straight flight out as it flies from one end of the box to
the
> > >> > other,
> > >> > how would you score it. By your definition seems like you have to
> give
> > > it
> > >> > a
> > >> > 10 since the error would only be around 3 to 4 degrees.
> > >> >
> > >> > Keith Black
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > >> > From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
> > >> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 10:32 PM
> > >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >> I don't think the rules support your claim that the 15m entry/exit
> is
> > >> >> a
> > >> >> minimum.  I think you have just made up your own rule to downgrade
> at
> > >> >> 1
> > >> >> point per 15.  However, this is very lenient downgrading because
to
> > >> >> get
> > > a
> > >> > 1
> > >> >> point downgrade by descending or ascending at 15 degrees, over a
> 100m
> > >> >> distance, the plane would change altitude by 77 ft.  A pilot
> changing
> > >> >> altitude by 15 ft or so would only be making a 3 degree error.
> (note:
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> box width at 150 meters is 600 meters).
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Therefore, if I  lose 15 ft of altitude as I fly from the end of
the
> > >> > reverse
> > >> >> cuban into the stall turn (manuvers 1 and 2) this should hardly
> > > register
> > >> > as
> > >> >> a downgrade.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> --Lance
> > >> >>
> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> > >> >> From: "Keith Black" <tkeithblack at gmail.com>
> > >> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> >> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:40 PM
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >I agree with Don's description on the maneuver, this makes
perfect
> > > sense
> > >> > to
> > >> >> > me. However, I really don't think it matters if you visualize
the
> > >> >> > center
> > >> >> > or
> > >> >> > the first corner as the start because IMO any deviation in
track,
> > >> > altitude
> > >> >> > change or wing bobble approaching the eight, whether 15 m or
> greater
> > >> > from
> > >> >> > the theoretical start of the eight is grounds for downgrade.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > This thinking goes to what Lance was discussing as "no man's
> land".
> > > I'm
> > >> >> > not
> > >> >> > sure there is such a thing, I've always thought of the 15 m
entry
> > > line
> > >> > as
> > >> >> > a
> > >> >> > minimum.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Let's take an example. A pilot comes out of the Humpty Bump
prior
> to
> > >> >> > the
> > >> >> > figure eight and draws a 15 m straight line. Then they start
> loosing
> > >> >> > altitude and continue dropping until 15 m before center (Lance's
> > >> >> > theoretical
> > >> >> > no man's land). I for one would deduct points from the eight
based
> > >> >> > on
> > >> > the
> > >> >> > 15
> > >> >> > degree rule. I don't think the spirit of the rules is "anything
> > > goes",
> > >> > or
> > >> >> > "it's not so bad" as long as it's not 15 m before a maneuver
> starts.
> > > If
> > >> >> > one
> > >> >> > does score this way then the pilot that keeps a perfect line
> between
> > >> > these
> > >> >> > two maneuvers will not be rewarded for doing a better job.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Keith Black
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > >> >> > From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
> > >> >> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> >> > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 8:07 AM
> > >> >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >> Don,
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Since it is the point of this list to be nitpicky, let me say
> that
> > >> >> >> when
> > >> >> > the
> > >> >> >> plane is inverted at center it is at a point that it will never
> > > return
> > >> >> >> to,
> > >> >> >> therefore the actual center can not be the start of the
manuver.
> > >> >> >> Granted,
> > >> >> >> the center is part of the straight line that begins and ends
all
> > >> >> >> manuvers,
> > >> >> >> but it is not part of the actual figure 8.  So to be complete,
> > > judging
> > >> >> >> starts 15m before the exit of the final radius and ends 15m
after
> > > this
> > >> >> >> point. This encompases the center but is not the actual
beginning
> > > and
> > >> >> >> ending.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> As for Stuart's comment, I think any downgrade applied to what
> the
> > >> >> > airplane
> > >> >> >> does when it is in "no man's land" falls in the smoothness and
> > >> >> > Gracefulness
> > >> >> >> category and should be minimal.  ("no man's land" exists
between
> > > some
> > >> >> >> manuvers that are far apart where the prior manuver and its 15m
> > >> >> >> exit
> > >> > line
> > >> >> >> end, but there is a long space before the 15m entry line of the
> > >> >> >> next
> > >> >> >> manuver.)
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> --Lance
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> > >> >> >> From: "Don Ramsey (CoxNet)" <don.ramsey at cox.net>
> > >> >> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:40 PM
> > >> >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> > Lance,
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> > I believe it starts at center. Straight line before center
and
> > > start
> > >> > at
> > >> >> >> > center.  The reason I say that is rule 14.1 which says "Each
> time
> > >> >> >> > the
> > >> >> >> > model
> > >> >> >> > passes before the judges, a maneuver is executed, except
after
> > >> > takeoff
> > >> >> > and
> > >> >> >> > landing."  Of course, some maneuvers start before center as
the
> > > slow
> > >> >> > roll,
> > >> >> >> > etc. As for scoring, I'm not entirely sure it matters.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> > Don
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > >> >> >> > From: <jivey61 at bellsouth.net>
> > >> >> >> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:16 PM
> > >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> Lance
> > >> >> >> >> You will have to have a entry line before the push to
vertical
> > > past
> > >> >> >> >> center.This is where I think it starts... at the start of
the
> > > entry
> > >> >> > line.
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> Jim Ivey
> > >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> > >> >> >> >> From: "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude at comcast.net>
> > >> >> >> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> >> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:51 PM
> > >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >>> OK,so where does the manuver begin and end?  At center, the
> > > radius
> > >> >> > after
> > >> >> >> >>> center, at the first corner initiation?
> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >>> --Lance
> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
> > >> >> >> >>> From: <jivey61 at bellsouth.net>
> > >> >> >> >>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> >> >> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 4:06 PM
> > >> >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >>> > Jason
> > >> >> >> >>> > The way we are flying the 8 is enter inverted and 1st
loop
> > >> >> >> >>> > (outside)
> > >> >> >> >>> > to
> > >> >> >> >>> > the
> > >> >> >> >>> > right of center and next (inside) loop to the left of
> > > center.The
> > >> >> > first
> > >> >> >> >>> > loop
> > >> >> >> >>> > is outside loop and 1st vertical segment starts past
> > >> >> >> >>> > center.Of
> > >> >> > course
> > >> >> >> >> swap
> > >> >> >> >>> > left and right for opposite flying direction.
> > >> >> >> >>> >
> > >> >> >> >>> >
> > >> >> >> >>> > Jim Ivey
> > >> >> >> >>> >
> > >> >> >> >>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > >> >> >> >>> > From: "JShulman" <jshulman at cfl.rr.com>
> > >> >> >> >>> > To: "NSRCA" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >> >> >> >>> > Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 4:08 PM
> > >> >> >> >>> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8
> > >> >> >> >>> >
> > >> >> >> >>> >
> > >> >> >> >>> >> Hi All,
> > >> >> >> >>> >>
> > >> >> >> >>> >> Does the Square horizontal 8 start at center or just
past
> > >> > center?
> > >> >> >> >>> >>
> > >> >> >> >>> >> Regards,
> > >> >> >> >>> >> Jason
> > >> >> >> >>> >> www.jasonshulman.com
> > >> >> >> >>> >> www.shulmanaviation.com
> > >> >> >> >>> >> www.composite-arf.com
> > >> >> >> >>> >> -- 
> > >> >> >> >>> >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > >> >> >> >>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > >> >> >> >>> >> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.2/528 -
Release
> > > Date:
> > >> >> >> >>> >> 11/10/2006
> > >> >> >> >>> >>
> > >> >> >> >>> >>
> > >> >> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________
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> > >> >> >> >>> >
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