[NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Advanced Schedule

Joe Lachowski jlachow at hotmail.com
Tue May 9 19:15:14 AKDT 2006 

Jim, thanks for the reality check.<g>


>From: <jivey61 at bellsouth.net>
>Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Advanced Schedule
>Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 22:50:48 -0400
>
>Guys
>Flying inverted is one of the simple things in life.Hopefully we have
>learned to fly inverted sometime in our career... like before Advanced. If
>you haven't, just pull up elevator a couple of times while inverted you 
>will
>easily learn how to fly inverted.
>  Seriously, not to make light of this, it does take a good effort and a 
>lot
>of practice to master these inverted parts. If this is the only thing wrong
>with the stepping stone system that Troy and the group has designed for
>us,then we are in good shape to advance in the patterns. Just bite the
>bullet and burn fuel.You won't be by yourself.
>Been there and done that,many times.
>Jim Ivey
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Terry Terrenoire" <amad2terry at juno.com>
>To: <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>Cc: <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 9:50 PM
>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Advanced Schedule
>
>
> > Jon: I couldn't agree more!!!!!!!!!!! I fought this tooth and nail last
> > year and caught a LOT of flack from Joe and Troy. I understand that they
> > have to defend the positions they took, but you have hit the nail on the
> > head. You willl not have seen an inverted entry or exit until you get 
>the
> > Masters!
> >
> > Terry T.
> >
> > On Tue, 09 May 2006 14:18:20 -0400 jonlowe at aol.com writes:
> > > Troy,
> > > Thanks for the reply.  While I agree that the manuevers are more or
> > >
> > > less equivalent, the inverted exits and entrances add a certain
> > > intimidation factor and skill set that is not captured by the new
> > > advanced sequence, and only to a very limited extent in the new
> > > intermediate schedule.  One look at some of the current intermediate
> > >
> > > contestants (sometimes me!) short inverted flight and the top of the
> > >
> > > current triangle loop and square loop will show the need for more
> > > inverted flight in general.  Straight line segments on entry and
> > > exit
> > > to manuevers is a key part of pattern flying, inverted or upright,
> > > and
> > > given the emphasis on inverted exits and entrances in Masters and
> > > FAI,
> > > I'm surprised we don't see more of it in the new patterns.  I'm
> > > disappointed we lost the push-pull-pull humpty bump in favor of an
> > > optional humpty bump, because I've already been doing that (optional
> > >
> > > h-b) in intermediate for two years. I'm also disappointed we lost
> > > the
> > > 45 down negative snap as it does use a different skill set than
> > > inside
> > > snaps, and adds the challenge of an inverted entrance and exit.   We
> > >
> > > already have an inside snap in the avalanche.  I've judged advanced
> > >
> > > this year and have seen some pretty poor (and pretty good) inverted
> > >
> > > entrances and exits.  What are we going to see in masters in a few
> > > years with no practice before we get there?
> > >
> > > As it stands right now, assuming I get to masters, I will never have
> > >
> > > seen an inverted entrance or exit until I get there.   I just think
> > >
> > > this is a mistake.
> > >
> > > Jon
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Troy A. Newman <troy_newman at msn.com>
> > > To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > > Sent: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:26:27 -0700
> > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Advanced Schedule
> > >
> > > Yes Jon,
> > > There are no inverted exits. The committee felt that inverted exits
> > > were not
> > > the criteria for an advanced pilot. To really say it another way
> > > just
> > > because the model doesn't exit inverted doesn't mean the sequence is
> > >
> > > not a
> > > challenge. I will agree the proposal is a hair less challenging that
> > >
> > > the
> > > current version. However the current version has many problems.
> > > Let us look at the challenge aspect.
> > >
> > > There is no bigger gap in the KF number on the proposals than now
> > > with
> > > present Advanced to the Masters of today. My point is in looking at
> > >
> > > KF's
> > > alone the 48 to KF of 67...The current schedules we have now is a
> > > jump
> > > from
> > > 50 to 68 so the difference is at worse 1 pt in the KF...
> > >
> > > The opinion of the group was that if you can master the skills in
> > > the
> > > proposed 403 then you are ready for the 404 class. Notice I said
> > > master
> > > the
> > > skills not can you do the figures. Advanced is not intended to be a
> > >
> > > Masters
> > > with less figures in it.
> > >
> > > Pattern flying is about mastering and perfecting the skills at
> > > various
> > > level. When asked why people fly pattern the number one answer is
> > > they
> > > got
> > > started to learn how to fly better. What would you rather do....go
> > > up
> > > and
> > > survive an inverted to inverted 8pt roll and get a 5 or 6 on it
> > > every
> > > time...Or would you rather build the skill to do a upright 4pt roll
> > > at
> > > the
> > > score of a 9 every single time and sometimes get a 10. Once you have
> > >
> > > the
> > > skill of the 4pt roll then you can do one from inverted to inverted
> > > the
> > > skills are still there.
> > >
> > > We developed what we thought would teach skills...The current jump
> > > from
> > > 402
> > > to 403 is large and yet the 403-404 jump is fairly small in the
> > > skill
> > > set
> > > department. This is a fact of life that we are living with today.
> > > Remember
> > > skills, not orientation of the model.
> > >
> > >
> > > What is so different in the current to the proposals other than
> > > inverted
> > > exits? Does having an inverted exit make you a better pilot? Does it
> > >
> > > teach
> > > you to do a better 4pt roll or slow roll....If you can't do one
> > > upright
> > > and
> > > score a 9 on it every time then why should we ask you to do one
> > > inverted to
> > > inverted? The Advanced class is an intro to finesse type rudder,
> > > slow
> > > rolls
> > > 4pts, little fixes in looping elements like the 6 sided and
> > > triangle.
> > >
> > > Lets look at the current schedules skills and compare skills.
> > >
> > > Stall turn with and without rolls in current. The Proposal has stall
> > >
> > > turns
> > > with 1/2s and a center stall turn component easy to see center on
> > > that
> > > one...and must learn to think about roll direction. The current Adv
> > >
> > > doesn't
> > > have this element.
> > >
> > > Reverse Cuban both
> > >
> > > 1/2 square loop 2/4pt both
> > >
> > > Slow roll both
> > >
> > > Bunt 1/2 roll out both
> > >
> > > Double I 1/2 on top full roll on btm.  In current but look at its
> > > components...the triangle with full roll from inverted at the top
> > > takes
> > > the
> > > full roll at the btm of the Double I..Then you have Immelman turn to
> > >
> > > take
> > > the first part of this figure, and bunts to take the second half of
> > > the
> > > figure...So all the skills are still used. Just you are not exiting
> > >
> > > anything
> > > inverted.
> > > Outside Immelman turn.....Bunt skills and Immelamnn skills in
> > > proposal
> > >
> > > 45 down negative snap...so proposal has a 45 down positive snap so
> > > does
> > > the
> > > current Masters schedule..and that is a direct preparation figure
> > > right? How
> > > does a 45 down negative snap help you prepare for a Masters with a
> > > positive
> > > any more than or less than a reversed orientation?
> > >
> > > Top Hat with 1/4's Both
> > >
> > > Triangle loop with 2/4pt...Triangle with full roll, The 2/4pt roll
> > > element
> > > is in the 4pt roll and also in 1/2 sq with 2/4pts
> > >
> > > Push Pull humpty no rolls. This is a good rudder figure as there are
> > > no
> > > places to hide the corrections...This skill of shapes can be seen in
> > >
> > > the 6
> > > sided as it has no rolls and several radii that must match
> > >
> > > Avalanche in Both
> > >
> > > 4pt roll in Both
> > >
> > > 1/2 sq with 1/2 roll in vertical in Both
> > >
> > > Six sided loop in current FAI P-07 by the way and the proposed
> > > Masters
> > > 07
> > >
> > > 2.5 turn spin in current and 3 turn spins in proposal. Very similar
> > >
> > > skills
> > > the major missing element is a 1/2 roll on the exit and I think that
> > > is
> > > covered in the Bunt, Immelman, 1/2 sq with 1/2 roll up, Reverse
> > > Cuban
> > > with
> > > 1/2's,  and so on...
> > >
> > > So the reality is I think the proposal cover all the bases the
> > > current
> > > schedule does except one inverted exits....but yet adds in a  center
> > >
> > > stall
> > > turn similar to the current masters to make it harder.
> > >
> > > So Jon...in a first look the figures seem a little mundane...But the
> > >
> > > skills
> > > are there and its things a pilot can build on and master not just
> > > survive
> > > the figure. I ask this question. What good does it do a Advanced
> > > pilot
> > > to go
> > > up and do a figure that he scores a 6 on every single time he flies
> > > it,
> > > because he has not mastered the rudder skills needed to roll from
> > > inverted
> > > to inverted. The current Double I with the full roll at the bottom
> > > because
> > > its down low and the speed changes and pucker increases and other
> > > things
> > > means he is not going to go out and work really hard on the roll
> > > with
> > > rudder. Instead we see the guys blasting through it because they are
> > >
> > > afraid
> > > to touch the rudder incase they give it wrong rudder.
> > >
> > > What does an advanced guy do a bunch...?  Give it the wrong rudder!
> > > We
> > > have
> > > all been through or are going through it. Rudder rolls like the
> > > bottom
> > > of
> > > the Double I  are a very finesse rudder input. This is a skill that
> > > is
> > > needed in Advanced and the group felt that Finesse rudder was one of
> > >
> > > the
> > > main criteria in Advanced. Plus you are going to see this skill in
> > > the
> > > bunt
> > > with 1/2 roll out...But instead its a 1/2 roll not a full roll. So
> > > the
> > > advanced pilot can master the 1/2 roll then go on to use that later
> > > in
> > > the
> > > sequence in the triangle while the model is up high and it can be
> > > seen.
> > >
> > > So how do you teach your kid to ride a bike? Do you take them in the
> > >
> > > grass
> > > so that when they fall its softer than the pavement? Do you add
> > > training
> > > wheels to the bike so that when they fall to the side the wheels
> > > catch
> > > them?
> > > Do you run behind and hold the seat, hoping that when you let go its
> > >
> > > not a
> > > trip to the ER.
> > >
> > > Well Finesse Rudder inputs are the same type of thing. We setup the
> > >
> > > proposal
> > > to help an advanced pilot succeed. He is not being given anything.
> > > The
> > > skills are still there and demanding, just not in the same place you
> > >
> > > would
> > > expect them.
> > >
> > > The current Advanced has 3 figures in a roll that are Immelman
> > > based.
> > > They
> > > are teaching the same skills. All at the same time. The proposal
> > > tries
> > > to
> > > link these skills and come back to them without doing the repeat
> > > thing
> > > figure after figure.
> > >
> > >
> > > This has been long enough...but I think you see where we tried to go
> > >
> > > with
> > > the proposal.
> > >
> > > Troy
> > > _______________________________________________
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