[NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Advanced Schedule

Tue May 9 17:59:07 AKDT 2006

Jon: I couldn't agree more!!!!!!!!!!! I fought this tooth and nail last
year and caught a LOT of flack from Joe and Troy. I understand that they
have to defend the positions they took, but you have hit the nail on the
head. You willl not have seen an inverted entry or exit until you get the
Masters!

Terry T.

On Tue, 09 May 2006 14:18:20 -0400 jonlowe at aol.com writes:
> Troy,
> Thanks for the reply.  While I agree that the manuevers are more or 
> 
> less equivalent, the inverted exits and entrances add a certain 
> intimidation factor and skill set that is not captured by the new 
> advanced sequence, and only to a very limited extent in the new 
> intermediate schedule.  One look at some of the current intermediate 
> 
> contestants (sometimes me!) short inverted flight and the top of the 
> 
> current triangle loop and square loop will show the need for more 
> inverted flight in general.  Straight line segments on entry and 
> exit 
> to manuevers is a key part of pattern flying, inverted or upright, 
> and 
> given the emphasis on inverted exits and entrances in Masters and 
> FAI,  
> I'm surprised we don't see more of it in the new patterns.  I'm 
> disappointed we lost the push-pull-pull humpty bump in favor of an 
> optional humpty bump, because I've already been doing that (optional 
> 
> h-b) in intermediate for two years. I'm also disappointed we lost 
> the 
> 45 down negative snap as it does use a different skill set than 
> inside 
> snaps, and adds the challenge of an inverted entrance and exit.   We 
> 
> already have an inside snap in the avalanche.  I've judged advanced 
> 
> this year and have seen some pretty poor (and pretty good) inverted 
> 
> entrances and exits.  What are we going to see in masters in a few 
> years with no practice before we get there?
> 
> As it stands right now, assuming I get to masters, I will never have 
> 
> seen an inverted entrance or exit until I get there.   I just think 
> 
> this is a mistake.
> 
> Jon
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Troy A. Newman <troy_newman at msn.com>
> To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:26:27 -0700
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Advanced Schedule
> 
> Yes Jon,
> There are no inverted exits. The committee felt that inverted exits 
> were not
> the criteria for an advanced pilot. To really say it another way 
> just
> because the model doesn't exit inverted doesn't mean the sequence is 
> 
> not a
> challenge. I will agree the proposal is a hair less challenging that 
> 
> the
> current version. However the current version has many problems.
> Let us look at the challenge aspect.
> 
> There is no bigger gap in the KF number on the proposals than now 
> with
> present Advanced to the Masters of today. My point is in looking at 
> 
> KF's
> alone the 48 to KF of 67...The current schedules we have now is a 
> jump 
> from
> 50 to 68 so the difference is at worse 1 pt in the KF...
> 
> The opinion of the group was that if you can master the skills in 
> the
> proposed 403 then you are ready for the 404 class. Notice I said 
> master 
> the
> skills not can you do the figures. Advanced is not intended to be a 
> 
> Masters
> with less figures in it.
> 
> Pattern flying is about mastering and perfecting the skills at 
> various
> level. When asked why people fly pattern the number one answer is 
> they 
> got
> started to learn how to fly better. What would you rather do....go 
> up 
> and
> survive an inverted to inverted 8pt roll and get a 5 or 6 on it 
> every
> time...Or would you rather build the skill to do a upright 4pt roll 
> at 
> the
> score of a 9 every single time and sometimes get a 10. Once you have 
> 
> the
> skill of the 4pt roll then you can do one from inverted to inverted 
> the
> skills are still there.
> 
> We developed what we thought would teach skills...The current jump 
> from 
> 402
> to 403 is large and yet the 403-404 jump is fairly small in the 
> skill 
> set
> department. This is a fact of life that we are living with today. 
> Remember
> skills, not orientation of the model.
> 
> 
> What is so different in the current to the proposals other than 
> inverted
> exits? Does having an inverted exit make you a better pilot? Does it 
> 
> teach
> you to do a better 4pt roll or slow roll....If you can't do one 
> upright 
> and
> score a 9 on it every time then why should we ask you to do one 
> inverted to
> inverted? The Advanced class is an intro to finesse type rudder, 
> slow 
> rolls
> 4pts, little fixes in looping elements like the 6 sided and 
> triangle.
> 
> Lets look at the current schedules skills and compare skills.
> 
> Stall turn with and without rolls in current. The Proposal has stall 
> 
> turns
> with 1/2s and a center stall turn component easy to see center on 
> that
> one...and must learn to think about roll direction. The current Adv 
> 
> doesn't
> have this element.
> 
> Reverse Cuban both
> 
> 1/2 square loop 2/4pt both
> 
> Slow roll both
> 
> Bunt 1/2 roll out both
> 
> Double I 1/2 on top full roll on btm.  In current but look at its
> components...the triangle with full roll from inverted at the top 
> takes 
> the
> full roll at the btm of the Double I..Then you have Immelman turn to 
> 
> take
> the first part of this figure, and bunts to take the second half of 
> the
> figure...So all the skills are still used. Just you are not exiting 
> 
> anything
> inverted.
> Outside Immelman turn.....Bunt skills and Immelamnn skills in 
> proposal
> 
> 45 down negative snap...so proposal has a 45 down positive snap so 
> does 
> the
> current Masters schedule..and that is a direct preparation figure 
> right? How
> does a 45 down negative snap help you prepare for a Masters with a 
> positive
> any more than or less than a reversed orientation?
> 
> Top Hat with 1/4's Both
> 
> Triangle loop with 2/4pt...Triangle with full roll, The 2/4pt roll 
> element
> is in the 4pt roll and also in 1/2 sq with 2/4pts
> 
> Push Pull humpty no rolls. This is a good rudder figure as there are 
> no
> places to hide the corrections...This skill of shapes can be seen in 
> 
> the 6
> sided as it has no rolls and several radii that must match
> 
> Avalanche in Both
> 
> 4pt roll in Both
> 
> 1/2 sq with 1/2 roll in vertical in Both
> 
> Six sided loop in current FAI P-07 by the way and the proposed 
> Masters 
> 07
> 
> 2.5 turn spin in current and 3 turn spins in proposal. Very similar 
> 
> skills
> the major missing element is a 1/2 roll on the exit and I think that 
> is
> covered in the Bunt, Immelman, 1/2 sq with 1/2 roll up, Reverse 
> Cuban 
> with
> 1/2's,  and so on...
> 
> So the reality is I think the proposal cover all the bases the 
> current
> schedule does except one inverted exits....but yet adds in a  center 
> 
> stall
> turn similar to the current masters to make it harder.
> 
> So Jon...in a first look the figures seem a little mundane...But the 
> 
> skills
> are there and its things a pilot can build on and master not just 
> survive
> the figure. I ask this question. What good does it do a Advanced 
> pilot 
> to go
> up and do a figure that he scores a 6 on every single time he flies 
> it,
> because he has not mastered the rudder skills needed to roll from 
> inverted
> to inverted. The current Double I with the full roll at the bottom 
> because
> its down low and the speed changes and pucker increases and other 
> things
> means he is not going to go out and work really hard on the roll 
> with
> rudder. Instead we see the guys blasting through it because they are 
> 
> afraid
> to touch the rudder incase they give it wrong rudder.
> 
> What does an advanced guy do a bunch...?  Give it the wrong rudder! 
> We 
> have
> all been through or are going through it. Rudder rolls like the 
> bottom 
> of
> the Double I  are a very finesse rudder input. This is a skill that 
> is
> needed in Advanced and the group felt that Finesse rudder was one of 
> 
> the
> main criteria in Advanced. Plus you are going to see this skill in 
> the 
> bunt
> with 1/2 roll out...But instead its a 1/2 roll not a full roll. So 
> the
> advanced pilot can master the 1/2 roll then go on to use that later 
> in 
> the
> sequence in the triangle while the model is up high and it can be 
> seen.
> 
> So how do you teach your kid to ride a bike? Do you take them in the 
> 
> grass
> so that when they fall its softer than the pavement? Do you add 
> training
> wheels to the bike so that when they fall to the side the wheels 
> catch 
> them?
> Do you run behind and hold the seat, hoping that when you let go its 
> 
> not a
> trip to the ER.
> 
> Well Finesse Rudder inputs are the same type of thing. We setup the 
> 
> proposal
> to help an advanced pilot succeed. He is not being given anything. 
> The
> skills are still there and demanding, just not in the same place you 
> 
> would
> expect them.
> 
> The current Advanced has 3 figures in a roll that are Immelman 
> based. 
> They
> are teaching the same skills. All at the same time. The proposal 
> tries 
> to
> link these skills and come back to them without doing the repeat 
> thing
> figure after figure.
> 
> 
> This has been long enough...but I think you see where we tried to go 
> 
> with
> the proposal.
> 
> Troy
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