[NSRCA-discussion] Reducing the odds...
Chad Northeast
chadnortheast at shaw.ca
Wed Mar 29 18:10:29 AKST 2006
Before everyone goes bonkers telling the manufacturers what to do, remember they have been building electric motors a hell of a lot longer than we have been using them...and we are a small market...so we are lucky they even listen to us.
At this point I am quite certain there will not be a fan on the new Pletty 30-10 Evo. The motor is currently getting some revisions to its cooling arrangement...but its not taking the shape of a fan.
They do use them (fans) on their smaller motors, heli stuff, and car motors (apparently quite succesfully)...but the larger stuff has enough room in the motor for other options.
As far as having all the breeze available....understand with a motor that is only 1.75" long from the backplate (for cooling purposes anyways) its very difficult with current planes designed around glow to direct any amount of air into the correct spot on the motors (windings).....on my Twister the intake of the cheek cowls are nearly at the firewall! If the cheeks intake right at the backplate of the spinner the air has to turn almost 90 degrees to hit any portion of the can...and on the can of an outrunner that is basically doing nothing...you really want the air going through the windings....so that leaves intaking at the spinner.
Chad
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Although this is one way around a problem from the manufacturer's point of view, it's not really a solution for our application. What I have asked in the past and Earl, Dave and Dean and a couple others have asked also is, and I paraphrase, how do you take advantage of the normal flying envelope to cool the motor, (engine), battery, (pipe)? Then plausible solutions have been developed or described on this forum.
It makes little sense to have all that breeze available and then rely on a silly tiny fan to draw air into the motor. That's just another way to not only rob precious power, it will also cost more money up front for the "improvement". That's not value....it's plain dumb. We need to let these manufacturers know that we are smarter than that, by not buying it.
MattK
-----Original Message-----
From: Rex LESHER <trexlesh at msn.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 21:33:18 -0800
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Reducing the odds...
Guys, some of our grief with cooling outrunner motors is being remedied by the manufacturer. They are beginning to install fans in the motor to pull air through them.... I believe Plettenburg is now doing this on their Extra 30-10.
Rex Lesher
----- Original Message -----
From: jeffghughes at comcast.net
To: NSRCA Mailing List ; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Reducing the odds...
Matt,
Your missing my point. I have never doubted that a "properly" designed duct can increase cooling. I just doubt that most modelers have "properly" designed duct work in their planes. The ducts we make increase cooling over not having any duct work, but I've built and flown a lot of planes with engines and motors un-cowled that didn't overheat either! My initial statement was around uncowled outrunner motors. Why not have them up front and exposed? Save a lot of grief and might just look good (or not, it just might look industrial). We as pattern folks always seem to do the harder right, instead of the easier right.
Jeff
-------------- Original message --------------
From: rcmaster199 at aol.com
Jeff, how do you increase air velocity around the motor with no increase in model airspeed?
Here's where our old friend Bernoulli comes in, stage left.
And BTW, the properly designed ENTRY into and EXIT from the ducting really increases the ducting efficiency.
Cheers,
Matt
-----Original Message-----
From: jeffghughes at comcast.net
To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 22:10:39 +0000
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Reducing the odds...
While I agree good ducting can be better than hanging out there, I seriously doubt if most modelers do any better than hanging it out. Plus I think an outrunner all polished up woul look pretty cool with the fuse faired into it.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Dean Pappas" <d.pappas at kodeos.com>
Good ducting is better than hanging in the breeze, and a whole lot prettier.
Dean Pappas
Sr. Design Engineer
Kodeos Communications
111 Corporate Blvd.
South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
(908) 222-7817 phone
(908) 222-2392 fax
d.pappas at kodeos.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of jeffghughes at comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 12:49 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List; NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Reducing the odds...
I was thinking about this the other day. Why don't we change the fuse design to stick the motor out in the breeze? Kind of like a WWI rotary or a foamy. Seems like we're trying hard to keep the planes identical in design between electrics and fuel for no apparent reasons
Also now that huge props and braking are available, will fuselages slim down some?
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Dean Pappas" <d.pappas at kodeos.com>
> Hi Earl,
> This sounds a whole lot loke the similar duct I have placed around my AXI
> outrunner.
> It is astounding how much a difference a real cooling duct makes.
> Fans inside the motor are a band-aid. The top-down solution is good airflow
> management.
>
> The picture is of the ductwork in the Funtana I am doing for FM.
> The subject is modifying the plane for high-performance electric. (high heat and
> RF generation)
> The airbox in the front of the cowl encloses the front of the motor,
> and feeds the internals and the 1/8" gap in the duct with high pressure air.
>
>
> later,
> Dean
>
> Dean Pappas
>
Attached Message
From:Dean Pappas <d.pappas at kodeos.com>
To:NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject:Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Reducing the odds...
Date:Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:19:00 +0000
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<HTML><BODY><DIV style='font-family: "Verdana"; font-size: 10pt;'><DIV>
<DIV>Although this is one way around a problem from the manufacturer's point of view, it's not really a solution for our application. What I have asked in the past and Earl, Dave and Dean and a couple others have asked also is, and I paraphrase, how do you take advantage of the normal flying envelope to cool the motor, (engine), battery, (pipe)? Then plausible solutions have been developed or described on this forum. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It makes little sense to have all that breeze available and then rely on a silly tiny fan to draw air into the motor. That's just another way to not only rob precious power, it will also cost more money up front for the "improvement". That's not value....it's plain dumb. We need to let these manufacturers know that we are smarter than that, by not buying it. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>MattK</DIV> <BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Rex LESHER <trexlesh at msn.com><BR>To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 21:33:18 -0800<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Reducing the odds...<BR><BR>
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<DIV>
<DIV>Guys, some of our grief with cooling outrunner motors is being remedied by the manufacturer. They are beginning to install fans in the motor to pull air through them.... I believe Plettenburg is now doing this on their Extra 30-10.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Rex Lesher</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=mailto:jeffghughes at comcast.net href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('jeffghughes at comcast.net');">jeffghughes at comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org');">NSRCA Mailing List</A> ; <A title=mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org');">nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 28, 2006 6:00 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Reducing the odds...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Matt,</DIV>
<DIV>Your missing my point. I have never doubted that a "properly" designed duct can increase cooling. I just doubt that most modelers have "properly" designed duct work in their planes. The ducts we make increase cooling over not having any duct work, but I've built and flown a lot of planes with engines and motors un-cowled that didn't overheat either! My initial statement was around uncowled outrunner motors. Why not have them up front and exposed? Save a lot of grief and might just look good (or not, it just might look industrial). We as pattern folks always seem to do the harder right, instead of the easier right.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Jeff</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: rcmaster199 at aol.com <BR>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana'">
<DIV>
<DIV>Jeff, how do you increase air velocity around the motor with no increase in model airspeed? </DIV>
<DIV>Here's where our old friend Bernoulli comes in, stage left. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And BTW, the properly designed ENTRY into and EXIT from the ducting really increases the ducting efficiency. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Cheers,</DIV>
<DIV>Matt</DIV> <BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: jeffghughes at comcast.net<BR>To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 22:10:39 +0000<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Reducing the odds...<BR><BR>
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<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_aec4f8b8-9de4-43e2-bb47-06284fcf57d8>
<DIV>While I agree good ducting can be better than hanging out there, I seriously doubt if most modelers do any better than hanging it out. Plus I think an outrunner all polished up woul look pretty cool with the fuse faired into it. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Dean Pappas" <d.pappas at kodeos.com> <BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=504561818-28032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Good ducting is better than hanging in the breeze, and a whole lot prettier.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">d.pappas at kodeos.com</FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>jeffghughes at comcast.net<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 28, 2006 12:49 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List; NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Reducing the odds...<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>I was thinking about this the other day. Why don't we change the fuse design to stick the motor out in the breeze? Kind of like a WWI rotary or a foamy. Seems like we're trying hard to keep the planes identical in design between electrics and fuel for no apparent reasons</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Also now that huge props and braking are available, will fuselages slim down some?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Dean Pappas" <d.pappas at kodeos.com> <BR><BR>> Hi Earl, <BR>> This sounds a whole lot loke the similar duct I have placed around my AXI <BR>> outrunner. <BR>> It is astounding how much a difference a real cooling duct makes. <BR>> Fans inside the motor are a band-aid. The top-down solution is good airflow <BR>> management. <BR>> <BR>> The picture is of the ductwork in the Funtana I am doing for FM. <BR>> The subject is modifying the plane for high-performance electric. (high heat and <BR>> RF generation) <BR>> The airbox in the front of the cowl encloses the front of the motor, <BR>> and feeds the internals and the 1/8" gap in the duct with high pressure air. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> later, <BR>> Dean <BR>> <BR>> Dean Pappas <BR>> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></! ??="h!
t!=" ml="!"></DIV>
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<TD class=FieldValue>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Reducing the odds...</TD></TR>
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<TD class=FieldValue>Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:19:00 +0000</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV>
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