[NSRCA-discussion] Noise - Overfly - and Different AerobaticModel Types
Ed Miller
edbon85 at charter.net
Fri Mar 3 04:37:57 AKST 2006
Easier said than done. Especially when the bulk of the membership are the
worst offenders. Before moving to TN, I belonged to a club that I'd say 60%
of the active flyers were "buy into the 40% IMAC syndrome". Only 1 ever
competed in an IMAC event once yet it was an ever escalating war as to who
had the biggest, LOUDEST and most importantly, most expensive IMAC plane and
engine of the week. $10K airframes were not uncommon. None were "true
modelers" by any sense of the word, many couldn't open a bottle of CA let
alone spell it. Since our field was literally out in the middle of nowhere,
208 acres of federally protected farm land, the noise or noise foot print to
neighbors wasn't an issue. However, the headaches and near fatal misses I'd
experience listening to these idiots hover over the flight line, pits and
parking areas was intolerable. Crashes, and they were frequent, usually
were very close to the pits or flight lines. While buddy boxing with my 9
year old son, 3 of these stooges proceeded to pull up next to us on the
flight line and run a new twin cylinder something with straight stacks for
10 minutes "to break it in". They placed the prop arc directly in line with
my son and I. Sorry, but that experience and many more have placed me in
the "anti giant IMAC camp". In my 44 years as a RC modeler ( I started at
age 5 ) I've seen plenty of giant scale modelers, and I emphasize the word
modelers, with HUGE engines fly, act responsibly and muffle their planes
down to a reasonable DB. But the advent of the large IMAC planes and the
well heeled "buy into" crowd who are seeing this venue as an ATTENTION
GETTER are the biggest threat to local clubs and our sport. I know the vast
majority of IMAC flyers are NOT what I describe and what I describe are the
supposed small percentage of bad apples. However, I've experienced way to
much of that "small percentage" of bad apples for my taste. The vast
majority of responsible IMAC flyers, AMA and local clubs are way overdue
reigning this in. But like everything else today, it's all about the money,
clubs and the AMA seeking revenue to keep themselves afloat.
Ed M.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Marshall" <lightfoot at sc.rr.com>
To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Noise - Overfly - and Different
AerobaticModel Types
Of course the local clubs are partly to blame in that they don't establish
and ENFORCE noise rules.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Pappas [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Dean Pappas
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 11:39 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Noise - Overfly - and Different Aerobatic
Model Types
Hi Dave,
What I hope we are saying here, is that being smart and making our aerobatic
planes quiet is good for the continued survival of both events. Of course,
if flyers with large, loud, and far-away 40% planes lose all our practice
fields and practice sites ...
This is just how the West Windsor contest in Jersey became a "first annual
and only ever" event.
Sadly, I have to say that two or three IMACers joined the club, and within a
few months, we had no Pattern Contest, a 6:00 P.M. weekday curfew on wet
power, and neighbors who are now very aware of our existence. Being noticed
ain't always a good thing! Smart noise abatement programs are aimed at
preventing that first complaint. Once it happens, it's almost too late.
To this end, I dearly would like to see the FAI consider a schedule
change(s) on an emergency basis, to change the existing rolling circles into
rolling-looping figures of some sort. Rolling circles are beautiful, but
potential flying site killers. The meaningful noise rules and Turnaround,
both dating back to the visionary changes in the early eighties, were
necessary to save the event from not being viable World-wide. Further
efforts along this line are necessary to ensure the continued viability of
the event: in populated areas, at least.
later friends,
Dean Pappas
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org on behalf of Dave Michael
Sent: Thu 3/2/2006 9:36 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Cc:
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC VsPatternParticipation?Does the DogHunt
on points made?
OK, so what are we saying here? I think it says that Pattern is
neighborhood friendly and IMAC is noisy and rude. While I don't think it's
as bad as my good friend Ed describes, let's say it's just like that for
sake of discussion.
What does this mean for Pattern?
I don't think this really means much for Pattern at all. I have heard this
message before- pattern is good because it is quiet so, for that reason, it
is better and people should want to join in on the fun. That's not a strong
Marketing campaign.
Right or wrong, for most potential participants, this is probably not even a
major factor in their decision making process to get involved- you could
even make the argument that the sound drives some people to and not away
from IMAC. Now, don't get me wrong- I agree that the big planes should be
quieter (in fact, they are quieter than a few years ago and we owe that in
no small part to some of the pattern folks I know and who may be reading
this message) and that all modelers should work to be good neighbors in
order to keep flying field and events.
However if we are talking about how to get more participation in pattern, I
think we need to look at the product. As I outlined in an earlier post
today, from a Marketing prospective Pattern faces an uphill battle- it's
not as interesting to the average flyer (prospective customer) and there are
similar disciplines (other products) that are flashier and get more press.
I got involved in an almost identical discussion on this list a while back
and, quite frankly, I came away with the feeling that the "core" pattern
group likes the event just the way it is now and do not want to change it.
It is perfectly fine to feel that way but you can't have it that way and
expect to see changes in participation rates. >From where I sit- the issue
of "growing pattern" is just like trying to expand one's business. If you
are determined to keep producing the same product but are continually
unhappy with your company sales you need a new CEO....
I don't expect that pattern will change much and I'm ok with that. I will
fly a pattern contest or two now and again because I like the sequence work
the best, I appreciate the precision and performance and I get a huge charge
out of the demonstrated control over the aircraft required to perform a
really well flown maneuver.
But- I would probably fly in more contests and think you would see some new
faces if we tried to spruce up the product a bit. Bill Glaze mentioned
that he was considering doing unknowns. Bill, to answer your question, I
would say "go for it" and introduce unkowns. They are a lot of fun! I
believe that you can further demonstrate your flying abilities by performing
well in the unknowns. It is a real challenge and you feel great when you do
them well.
Oh, well, that's enough for now. Gotta go put the cannisters and three
bladed prop on my 40% Extra..... :)
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Alt <mailto:ed_alt at hotmail.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC Vs PatternParticipation?Does the
DogHunt on points made?
Jay:
Very true. Several sites formerly used for SA contests have been lost here
in the NE due to noise / neighbor complaints during contests. I heard that
another contest went away due to liability concerns after a severe injury
involving a contestant and his own airplane, then there's another which very
sadly is going away because of real estate development (PGRC field).
There's a lot of history at that field. Anyway, the noise footprint concern
is huge. We had a request for our club to host a 2nd SA contest this year
because of the loss of so many other sites. We turned it down in part
because of the fact that the noise rules are now ignored, the box boundaries
went away and the sequences are insane, making the noise footprint problem
worse than it's ever been. Even as wide open as we think our contest field
is, we've had complaints and we didn't want to increase the exposure and
risk. They better figure out what is plainly obvious to at least some of
us, because the current profile of the event is fairly obnoxious to alot of
people. The hovering next to the pits also has the club member volunteers
pretty darned annoyed and with them as well as being concerned with
liability, but the attitude by some is that it's their right - to paraphrase
- "it's IMAC, it's what we do".
Anyway, compare the D1 contest calendar to the NE IMAC contest calendar and
tell me again that IMAC is gaining while pattern is losing. Not around here
is isn't.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Jay Marshall <mailto:lightfoot at sc.rr.com>
To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC Vs Pattern Participation?Does the
DogHunt on points made?
The strongest control is the neighbors closing down the site.
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Bill Glaze
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 4:59 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC Vs Pattern Participation? Does the
DogHunt on points made?
Ed:
I'll tell you of the latest iteration/interpretation when I get back from
Florida. I'm sure it will be interesting. It is amazing and a little more
than baffling to me that, with the loudest airplanes in modeling, there is
somewhere between little or no effort to control the noise footprint.
Bill Glaze
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Alt <mailto:ed_alt at hotmail.com>
To: randy10926 at comtekmail.com ; NSRCA Mailing List
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC Vs Pattern Participation? Does the
DogHunt on points made?
For all practical purposes, Scale Aerobatics has no box anymore. It exists
as an abstract concept on a piece of paper in that it has a defined height,
width and depth, but since they eliminated the 75 degree markers, there is
nothing left to measure it against. Additionally, they eliminated the
concept of zones, so you are free to place things where it seems good to
place them, i.e., a figure that would appear to be meant for the center of
the box doesn't have to be flown directly in front of you. Your choice of
placement has some kind of connection to the so-called Presentation Score as
it was originally 'defined'. There are no deductions for centering
inaccuracy. Once you enter the box, you still need to get figures in the
correct order and direction, though cross box figures leave direction (in or
out) to the discretion of the pilot. Currently, there may or may not be
enforcement of a pure impressionist extra figure known as the Presentation
Score. It passed as a rule, then everyone was instructed by the IMAC BOD
not to follow the AMA rule they pushed through. I heard rumblings that
maybe they are going to allow or encourage CDs to follow that rule again.
Not sure, I don't really track what they do very closely anymore.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn Hatfield <mailto:randy10926 at comtekmail.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC Vs Pattern Participation? Does the
DogHunt on points made?
You can fly low slow and close in if you desire. The box that you fly in is
smaller for pattern than IMAC. You get too close in and the box gets really
small. The box is about the right size for a 2 meter at 150 to 170 Meters
parallel to the flight line. You might be able to fly a 50 sized at 125 to
150 meters. At least I do.
Randy
--- "Jay Marshall" <lightfoot at sc.rr.com> wrote:
From: "Jay Marshall" <lightfoot at sc.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 15:51:24 -0500
To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC Vs Pattern Participation? Does the
DogHunt on points made?
I'm new and saw my first contests last year. My first impression was "Why do
they fly so high?" Then I wondered what would happen if I flew low, slow and
close in with a Oxalys 50? Still wondering.
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of mike mueller
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 2:14 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC Vs Pattern Participation? Does the
DogHunt on points made?
You know what, Keith is right. We have a really good flyer that comes to
one of our contests about once a year. He flys his whole sequence right off
the deck like a bat out of hell. He's really good and can pull it off. The
deal excites everyone. It's a blast to watch.
Keith Black <tkeithb at comcast.net> wrote:
Reading the comments here brings the following to my attention.
Loud "ballistic missile" pattern = Huge popularity.
Quite graceful pattern flying 150 m away = Boring.
Huge Loud IMAC planes flying 3D = Huge popularity.
I bet if we add an "Extreme Pattern" class where we do high slow rolls and
snaps ten feed off the deck right over the runway we'd become much more
popular again. ;-)
Keith Black
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Richards <mailto:bob at toprudder.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, Ma! rch 02, 2006 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] IMAC Vs Pattern Participation? Does the
DogHunt on points made?
Larry,
Good points.
A little history, as best as I can remember it.
At one time, Pattern was the top of the heap. I remember the first RC
Modeler magazine I bought (circa 1972) had coverage of the Masters
competition. RC Modeler carried coverage of the large pattern contests back
then. At some point (I don't remember when, exactly) RCM (aka Don Dewey)
became ticked off at the AMA because AMA chose to publish their own
magazine. This happened when American Aircraft Modeler magazine went out of
business, they had been publishing the AMA News in the back of their
magazine. It seemed to me that RCM no longer covered pattern events after
that. There was a big push by RCM to promote the "Sport Flyers Associat!
ion", anything AMA sanctioned was left out. (This was my observation).
Along came the TOC, which actually started out with pattern models. Again,
t! here was coverage. But, then the TOC went the scale aerobatics route (and
extra points for biplanes, and extra points for mammoth planes -- the rest
is history).
Pattern is no longer the premiere event that it used to be. I think it all
goes back to the WOW factor. There also seemed to be a period where pattern
flyers were looked down upon, usually labeled "snobs". Thank goodnes that
does not seem to be the case anymore.
I think the change from loud, ballistic missle type flying to the turnaround
style now has changed the general modeling perception, although it took
several years for the general modeling public to recognize the change.
However, the turnaround format seems to have had both a positive and negati!
ve effect. The general modeling public respects pattern more as a result,
but it also SEEMS to be a barrier for new participants. Again, this is just
my opinion.
Bob R.
Lisa & Larry <lld613 at psci.net> wrote:
Eric Henderson wrote**** If we knew why we could probably fix it. ****
>From my viewpoint trying to get into pattern around 1999 was a major
challenge.
I was first introduced to Pattern in Southern California in 1985 when I went
to watch a contest. It took another 15 years to have the time and money to
do it. For me lack of time was because of my service in the US Navy.
Difficult to fly when your out at sea and they don't fit too well in a
locker on the ship...vbg
! It took me from 1999 to 2002 to find somebody that new what pattern was.
Everyone new IMAC and could point me to a pilot that competed, but not
Pattern.
What does this mean? Either I'm not a very smart cookie or Pattern is a very
well kept secret (not much has changed since 1999). So how is it that a
person that new pattern existed took the better part of 4 years to finally
talk to someone that could help get started?
Over the last seven years we watched IMAC ARF's take off and sell like hot
cakes, only in the last couple years have we seen Pattern ARF's on the
market.
I went to an RC Airshow north of Bloomington, IN around the spring of 2002.
I watched a pilot fly an Extra for an! IMAC Sportsman Class Demo. I
approached him and asked him about Pattern and how to get started. His
response was clear, "Why would you want to fly a toy model plane when you
can fly a model of a real plane and do the same thing!" Aside from an
instant turn off from IMAC, it ! set the tone of perception between IMAC and
Pattern. I will most likely start competing in IMAC this year as well as
pattern. Mostly because there are more IMAC contests in a 5 hour drive than
there are pattern from where I'm located.
If you compare IMAC and Pattern I don't think the dog hunts in most of the
arguments I've seen posted in the last few years as they reappear from time
to time.
1) IMAC and Pattern planes compare in cost. (That dog won't hunt on this
point)
2) 2) IMAC and Pattern take the same ! amount of practice time to
be competitive in a given class. (That dog won't hunt on this point)
3) IMAC and Pattern meets are relatively the same driving distance for
most. (That dog won't hunt! on this point)
4) I can find more IMAC contests than Pattern contests (Dog might be
tracking something on this one)
5) Sport pilots know more about IMAC than they do pattern, this is
speculative but I believe it's the case. (Dog might be tracking something on
this one)
We need to do a better job marketing Pattern. I think that IMAC has done
great in this area. The TOC helped IMAC grow and get the word out through
coverage of a big event. I think we can see a decline in IMAC since the last
TOC. I have not seen or heard of a big contest that gets the publicity that
the TOC received. Even the FAI World Pattern contest is not covered! as well
as the TOC was.
How do you guys view these points?
Larry Diamond
NSRCA 3083
PS...What Eric does for Pattern in his reporting to magazines is probably
one of the key factors that he! lps pattern stay afloat. Thanks Eric....
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