[NSRCA-discussion] Analog Servo RF Masking and....Thanks!

[Scott Pavlock]

Del

Yes all were sent in at the same time and all are on there way back as of
today.


Scott


On 7/7/06, Del K. Rykert <drykert2 at rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>  when you sent it in for checkup was it with the everything.. switch,
> servos, receiver and Tx.?
>
>     Del
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com>
> *To:* NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 06, 2006 9:01 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Analog Servo RF Masking and....Thanks!
>
> Scott,
> That's why I asked if you had an oscilloscope. You may have been able to
> see the screwed up servo pulses with that. Anyway, at this point, don't
> worry about this stuff. Go out and practice! That's the most important thing
> right now. See you at the NATs.
>
>
> John Pavlick
> http://www.idseng.com
>
> BTW - I flew digital servos on a Futaba PPM Rx last year. No problems. You
> have something going on there - re-visit it when you get back from the NATs.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:
> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]*On Behalf Of *Scott Pavlock
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 06, 2006 1:08 AM
> *To:* NSRCA Mailing List
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Analog Servo RF Masking and....Thanks!
>
> Jim,
>
> Your post makes more sense to me than any other so far. This would explain
> why so many different set ups revealed the same jittery results, but when a
> PCM receiver was introduced, it relieved the problem.
>
> I am happy to say, with many many thanks to the Jesky's, that I am running
> a new, total JR set up in the plane now, with very nice results so far. I
> think I can go flying tomorrow, FINALLY, and not worry so much about
> glitching.
>
> Jim's last post seems to be the closest thing to the cause of this
> dilemma. Looking at the characteristics of the problem, I just don't see it
> being a result of "brand mixing." Looking at the issues, and looking at what
> solved the issues, this seems to be the absolute most logical explanation
> for what is happening.
>
> I used to think PCM was just a more expensive way to perform a simple
> task, but now I see that it is not. I can honestly say that I will not fly
> digital servos on PPM any more.
>
> Thanks a TON for everyone's input on this issue, it's all helped so much!!
>
>
> See everyone in Muncie!
>
> Scott Pavlock
>
> On 7/6/06, J.Oddino <joddino at socal.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >  PPM signals are analog, not digital.  If there is noise introduced to
> > the system in the RF link it shows up as jitter (small changes in pulse
> > width at fairly high frequency) on the pulse width output to the servos.  As
> > the range increases the noise increases and the jitter increases.  The
> > digital servos have very tight deadband and will respond to the pulse
> > jitter.  The analog servos may have a large deadband in which case they
> > would not respond to the jitter.  A PCM receiver is a true digital device
> > and noise added in the RF link can not get through.  If the noise gets bad
> > enough it will go into hold or failsafe but you will not get servo jitter.
> >
> > Deadband is the range that the pulse width can change before the servo
> > will respond.  A tight servo will respond with a pulse width change as small
> > as one microsecond.
> >
> > I'm not saying this is the cause of your problem but it is something to
> > check.  Hope this helps.
> >
> > Jim O
> >
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Scott Pavlock <f3aflyer7 at gmail.com>
> > *To:* NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >  *Sent:* Tuesday, July 04, 2006 6:04 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Analog Servo RF Masking and....Thanks!
> >
> > J.
> > Yes PPM / Dead band ?
> >
> > In the problem set up they are all JR digital servos only. 2 - 9411sa's,
> > 1 - 8411sa, 1 - 8417, 1 - 3421sa) they all are glitching.I'm not mixing
> > analog and digital at any time. The glitch has been as drastic as a violent
> > 1/4 inch up and down movement on the elevator surface when we first plugged
> > them in after we received the system back from service to this constant
> > noise on all servos with no load.
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > On 7/4/06, Ed Alt <ed_alt at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >  Scott:
> > > OK, is any of the analog servos?  Do the digitals also do it?  (I
> > > assume not).  For example, I've noticed that JR 4721 and 4131 servos have a
> > > cyclic response to most any JR digital installed on the same receiver.
> > > Everything worked fine from a reliability/range standpoint, but there was
> > > this small, regular interval "blit"; just a couple of degrees of
> > > movement from whatever position the analog servo should have been remaining
> > > in.  The digitals were rock solid, the 4131 and 4721 just blitted a little
> > > bit.  I finally decided that I just wouldn't mix the 4131 or 4721 in a
> > > digital servo environment and that was the end of it.
> > >
> > > Ed
> > >
> > >  ----- Original Message -----
> > > *From:* Scott Pavlock <f3aflyer7 at gmail.com>
> > > *To:* NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > >  *Sent:* Tuesday, July 04, 2006 8:06 PM
> > > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Analog Servo RF Masking
> > > and....Thanks!
> > >
> > > Ed
> > >
> > >  WE used three different Rx two different brands all the same glitch
> > > also put hole setup in my dad trainer same glitch also used my dads brand
> > > new RX and TX same glitch. Used three different freq. same glitch.Sowe tried a analog servo no glitch we replaced them all with analog no glitch
> > > still no confidence in the system.
> > >
> > > Scott
> > >
> > > On 7/4/06, Scott Pavlock <f3aflyer7 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Scott
> > > >
> > > >  I don't know if Tony put it on a shaker table or not but he did put
> > > > six hours in the system. And he really went out of his way to get it to us
> > > > asap.With the 4th holiday I've not been able to contact him, maybe
> > > > tommorow. While range checking the digis if I put my hand on the antenna the
> > > > glitch increased but with the analog there was no glitch at all. My father
> > > > and I have been working this problem for over a month we have replaced
> > > > everything or sent it in to be checked.Right now no glitches with
> > > > analogs but again will the glitch present itself as noticably with analogs
> > > > as apose to the digis.We have no glitch right now but still no
> > > > confidence in the system.
> > > >
> > > > Scott
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 7/4/06, Scott Anderson <scott at rcfoamy.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >  Hi Scott,
> > > > >
> > > > > Stupid question, did you send RX out and have it put on a shaker
> > > > > table and checked.. I had a RX issue for over a month and spent time with
> > > > > Tony S. and he found a bad filter on the board..
> > > > >
> > > > > Just my 2 cents from a fellow team member..
> > > > >
> > > > > Scott Anderson
> > > > >
> > > > >  ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > *From:* Scott Pavlock <f3aflyer7 at gmail.com>
> > > > >  *To:* NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > > > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 04, 2006 6:29 PM
> > > > > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Analog Servo RF Masking
> > > > > and....Thanks!
> > > > >
> > > > > I've used multiple battery set ups including ones without a
> > > > > regulator on a normal NiCd pack, and also on both a 5.6v regulator
> > > > > and a 6v regulator.
> > > > >
> > > > > John,
> > > > >
> > > > > No I don't. I actually have no clue what that is haha.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 7/4/06, John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  Do you have access to an oscilloscope?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > John Pavlick
> > > > > > http://www.idseng.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:
> > > > > > nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]*On Behalf Of *Scott
> > > > > > Pavlock
> > > > > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 04, 2006 5:40 PM
> > > > > > *To:* NSRCA Mailing List
> > > > > > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Analog Servo RF Masking
> > > > > > and....Thanks!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  I've literally tried EVERYTHING possible to isolate the
> > > > > > problem. The only problem I can find is solely in the servos. The battery is
> > > > > > bran new (duralite 2s2p), bran new heavy duty MPI switch. I can reproduce
> > > > > > the problem with the digis with many different switch/battery/regulator set
> > > > > > ups. I know current draw isn't a problem as I've flown this set up for 2
> > > > > > years with no faults.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 7/4/06, John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >  Scott,
> > > > > > >  Well I'm sure you've been through a lot already, but what you
> > > > > > > need to do is try to isolate the problem if possible. Start with a working
> > > > > > > setup (the analog servos). Next, add 1 digital servo. If it still works,
> > > > > > > remove that servo and try another. Only change ONE thing at a time. If it
> > > > > > > works with 1 digital servo ALL THE TIME, then add a second one. If you start
> > > > > > > to see problems as you add more digital servos (i.e gets worse
> > > > > > > with 3 or 4 digital servos but seems to work OK with 1 or 2), look at your
> > > > > > > battery and switch. What are you using for a battery and switch by the way?
> > > > > > > If your radio checks out OK (RF-wise) it's more likely that there is a
> > > > > > > problem with power. I bet you didn't have Rx the batteries checked did you?
> > > > > > > As you know, analog servos don't draw nearly as much current as digital
> > > > > > > servos. That could be the problem. If you have any way to look at the
> > > > > > > voltage when all of this is happening it could reveal some things. One way
> > > > > > > to do this is to put a servo lead in an unused channel on the Rx, connect it
> > > > > > > to a voltmeter, turn everything on and move the sticks. Don't use an
> > > > > > > Expanded-scale volt meter, just a plain old DVM (or better yet an analog
> > > > > > > volt meter) will do. See what that tells you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > John Pavlick
> > > > > > > http://www.idseng.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >  -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:
> > > > > > > nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]*On Behalf Of *Scott
> > > > > > > Pavlock
> > > > > > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 04, 2006 3:58 PM
> > > > > > > *To:* NSRCA Discussion List
> > > > > > > *Subject:* [NSRCA-discussion] Analog Servo RF Masking
> > > > > > > and....Thanks!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > First I would like to thank everyone for the great advice on
> > > > > > > these last few posts I've posted. Everyone has been a big help.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'd like to ask if anyone knows if an analog servo would mask
> > > > > > > glitches coming in?
> > > > > > > (2 - Futaba 3010's, 2 - Hitec HS77's, 1 - HS81MG)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When I connect my JR digital servos ( 2 - 9411sa's, 1 -
> > > > > > > 8411sa, 1 - 8417, 1 - 3421sa) I get a pretty significant, constant glitch,
> > > > > > > as if the servos are constantly trying to center, but they have no load what
> > > > > > > so ever. This is the problem I have described in previous posts.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When I connect analog servos in an identical set up, there is
> > > > > > > no "noise" at all. I range tested them at 100 feet with 1 antenna section up
> > > > > > > and there is no loss in speed and no sluggish behavior. I also range tested
> > > > > > > this at about 300 feet with the antenna completely down just for kicks, and
> > > > > > > I get the same results.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When I range test the digital servos, even at the 100 foot
> > > > > > > range with the antenna completely extended there is a significant, constant
> > > > > > > glitch. The servos, receiver, and transmitter have all just gotten back from
> > > > > > > being checked and the 9411sa's had new pots put in, the receiver had been
> > > > > > > re-tuned to the frequency, and the transmitter got a new antenna. I am very
> > > > > > > surprised with these results as I just spent a fair amount of money to have
> > > > > > > my electronics looked at and deemed well.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now, my question again, are my analog servos just masking a
> > > > > > > problem, or is this solely a problem in the digital servos?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks a ton everyone!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Scott
> > > > > > >
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