[NSRCA-discussion] Electric vs. Glow

Sat Feb 18 09:14:04 AKST 2006

Mike,

No arguing the reality of what it costs to replace perfectly good equipment
(no matter what you replace it with).  And no arguing the differentials
between what could be spent on an economy glow setup (OS160) vs a top end
glow (EFI or DZ) setup, or economy (AXI) vs top end electric setups.

My point was simply that the costs for electric are not as high as many
percieve - if you consider new glow and new electric setups available today.
Especially when you consider the increased reliability and reduced
maintenance of an electric motor and ESC compared to a glow engine.
Assuming the plane is the same (and it can be), figure out the cost of your
preferred glow setup (with support equipment) and compare that to the cost
of the electric setup you prefer.  What I am finding is that the closer you
look at the details (do you really need BB hardware on an electric?), and
the longer the time period you evaluate, the cheaper the electric gets - to
the point which I can easily make the case that electric can be done
competitively for a similar or LESS cost (albeit the cost is front-loaded -
no different than getting into pattern to begin with, or switching from 4C
to 2C, etc.).

You've listed a glow setup you are happy with at $1,600.00.  Steve Maxwell
listed an electric setup he is happy with at $2,000.00.  Not much
difference - especially if you look at repair/maintenance costs for the next
1, 2, or 3 years.

Regards,

Dave

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Laggis" <fishgod at pobox.mtaonline.net>
To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric vs. Glow

> 2 x motors add another $455
> 2 x speed controllers add another $210
> 4 x battery packs add another      $1200
> -1 Deep cycle battery      -$100
>
> Total additional      $1765
> Previous total      $3960
>
> Electric setup      $5725
>
>
> Glow setup
>
> Abbra $1300
> My motors/servos/odds and ends $0
> Years Fuel $300
>
> Glow Setup $1600
>
> Because of the short flying season here I would want backup motors/speed
> controllers.  I have backup for my glow.
> Granted, here in Alaska I have 2 contests.  Would love to make it contests
> in the lower 48 but the time and cost is too much.
>
> Michael
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of David
> Lockhart
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 3:18 PM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric vs. Glow
>
> As has been noted, I plan to make the jump to electric in 2006 - I'd offer
> the following costs -
>
> $1,300.00 - Abbra (www.EScomposites.com).
> $455.00 - Pletty 30-10 (www.Icare-rc.com).
> $210.00 - Castle Creations Phoenix 85HV (www.CastleCreations.com).
> $1,200.00 - 2xTP10s4p 5300 (www.Draganfly.com - best prices I've seen).
> $35.00 - Budd softmount (www.BuddEngineering.com) $250.00 - 2xAstro 109
lipo
> chargers (available many places).
> $100.00 - 1 12volt deep cycle marine battery for field charging.
> $150.00 - Iota DLS55 power supply (55 amp) - available many places, use
for
> home PS and recharge of 12 volt field battery.
>
> $3,690.00 Total.
>
> The above is absolutely competive in F3A and all of it is reasonably easy
to
> get.  You could spend more/less on any of the above items, but as listed,
> depending on the number of flights, the cost is certainly comparable to a
> decked out DZ setup w/ softmount, header, CF pipe, etc, and the support
> equipment and fuel to go with it.  If you want to fly back to back, you'll
> need 2 more chargers ($250.00) and 2 more sets ($1,200.00) of lipos, but
> what is listed should be good for at least 200-300 flights - at which
point
> all that might be needed is new lipos (which continue to drop in price and
> improve in performance).  Compare that to servo repairs, airframe
vibration
> repairs, umpteen gallons of 30%DZ fuel, the engine in the plane, the
engine
> being repaired, and the engine in transit to/from the repair shop,
> ....etc....and make your choice.  And the price could be reduced using an
> AXI (definite weight penalty) or one of the soon to be available Hacker
> outrunners (also a weight penalty) which are in the $250.00 range.  For
> Sportsman, Intermediate, and Advanced, the TP 4200s have plenty of
capacity
> and power, and would save another $160.00.
>
> FWIW - I will be changing to electric because the perception is that the
> electric is better, and I will have more options for practice fields.
Kind
> of amusing on both counts - as my Webra setup is substantially stronger
> (appearance-wise and by the numbers) and the noise levels of my glow and
> electric setups are within 1db.
>
> For the record, I've happily purchased products from all the companies I
> noted, some of which are current sponsors (and I've done beta testing
for) -
> - Castle Creations for ESCs.
> - Budd Engineering for mounts.
> - Horizon help with TP lipos (as they carry TP and I am part of Team JR
> through Horizon).
>
> I did a lot of reading, and contacted a lot of people for information.  To
> date, I'm quite happy with the Pletty/CC/TP setup in the Abbra and I've
only
> had a few minor issues which were easily remedied for little or no cost.
I
> plan to bump up the power output when the weather is warmer (lipos don't
> like the cold) and try some other motors (Cyclon and Hacker) in addition
to
> the Pletty.  And I can't wait to get the pair of Prestige planes in the
air
> as they will be 3-5 oz lighter, putting them under the 10 lb mark at
takeoff
> (compared to my Webra powered Vivats which are 9.75 lb dry and 10 lbs 8 oz
> at takeoff).
>
> A long time ago, it was posted on this list that electrics were not for
> everyone and probably never would be - still sage advice today - eh Mr.
> Shulman?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave Lockhart
> DaveL322 at comcast.net
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Laggis" <fishgod at pobox.mtaonline.net>
> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 5:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric vs. Glow
>
>
> > I have been flying indoor electrics for 6 years.  I have been flying
> LiPolys
> > long before they were truly commercially available.  We bought
> > individual cells and made our own packs.  I have packs that have 100+
> > cycles easy.  I understand the benefits of electrics.  I personally
> > can't make the initial jump into electrics
> >
> > 4 packs $2960
> > 2 chargers $400
> > Power Supplies $200
> > New Air Frame $2500
> > 2 Motors ?????
> > 2 Speed Controllers ?????
> >
> > Total Approx $7000?
> >
> > I know that with the amount I can fly all in a summer the equipment
> > would probably last me years.  It is just the initial dump of $7000
> > that I can't lay out
> >
> > Michael Laggis
> > NSRCA 3618
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Joe
> Lachowski
> > Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 1:33 PM
> > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electric vs. Glow
> >
> > I'll throw something else in the mix which you can't put a price on.
> > Loss
> of
> > hearing due to exposure time to noise generated from internal
> > combustion motors and the risk of cancer associated with the exposure
> > to the fuel
> which
> > we come in contact with.
> >
> > Of course on the electric side, you have risk of fire.
> >
> > Let's throw in one more benefit in the electric direction, a big one,
> > keeping flying sites. Not to start a war here, but I've heard of a
> > number
> of
> > fields over the last 5 yrs being lost or restricted in one way or
> > another because of loud IMAC style airplanes. Ask Dave Lockhart,
> > because of some IMAC planes he has had to by necessity to resort to
> > flying electric in
> order
> > to take advantage of using a field local to him in the weekday evening
> > hours.
> >
> > Del, glow fuel manufacturers don't guarantee their fuel why should the
> > battery mfg. Like the glow setup it is all up to the individual to
> > operate/maintain his equipment within the parameters they are designed
> > to operate. I've read enough on the web and magazines to now feel
> > confident that in most cases if you properly use and maintain your
> > electric
> equipment
> > you should be able to get several hundred flights out of a pack.
> > Unfortunately, in our application we are on the bleeding edge and the
> > jury is still out. There are some who have over a hundred flights on a
> > flight pack already. Only time will tell and the technology still
> > keeps
> improving.
> > On the downside, for some, if you don't fly several hundred flights a
> > year on your pattern rig, it is not worth it to fly electric due to
> > battery
> shelf
> > life.
> >
> > yada yada yada<g>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion