[NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
Del K. Rykert
drykert2 at rochester.rr.com
Tue Aug 15 11:58:16 AKDT 2006
Fred..
The sequence of maneuvers allows flight path correction within the
turnaround maneuvers.. They are also often considered placement adjustment
maneuvers. Legally allows the pilot to adjust the size or geometry of the
maneuver to get him/her self back into position. If it were easy to make
them all flow together it wouldn't be called precision aerobatics.
Del
nsrca - 473
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber at clearwire.com>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
> Is a curse correction a maneuver? how much of a course correction
> constitutes an added maneuver?
>
> If you exit a maneuver 15 deg off desired track... does that force you to
> keep 15 deg off track entering the next maneuver with an automatic 1 point
> downgrade?
>
> Choose the downgrade or the course correction (additional maneuver)
> zeroing
> the following maneuver.
>
> There HAS to be a "segement" allowing track correction between maneuvers
> with no penalty... or you can't ever recover from the first maneuver exit
> being off track. Most are "hiding" thier corrections (rather well) But
> the
> judges still see the bad exit... and know the correction was made. You
> either have to accept that all maneuvers following will be downgraded and
> quit correcting.... or allow the correction in an unjudged gap between
> maneuvers.
>
> If the pilot needs a turn of more than 30 deg. in that "dead zone"..
> getting
> on track for the following maneuver is going to be a ROYAL !#%%^ The
> next
> maneuver's probably going to zero (or be below 5 which above Sportsman
> usually may as well be 0) anyway.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Laggis" <fishgod at mail2web.com>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 2:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>
>
> ahh but it does, because you would be adding a maneuver which would 0 the
> next maneuver.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org on behalf of twtaylor
> Sent: Tue 8/15/2006 10:37 AM
> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>
>
>
> I've often thought the same thing, There's no rule that says it's a down
> grade or you can't do it. Even if we construe the 15 meters before and
> after
> a maneuver.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dean Pappas
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 2:24 PM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>
>
>
> You're being funny ... right?
>
>
>
> Dean Pappas
> Sr. Design Engineer
> Kodeos Communications
> 111 Corporate Blvd.
> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
> (908) 222-7817 phone
> (908) 222-2392 fax
> d.pappas at kodeos.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Terry Brox
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 2:14 PM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>
> Would that mean that the "dead" zone between the exit line of one maneuver
> and the entry line of another, if there is sufficient distance, could be
> used to reposition the craft on a new heading. In othere words, turn 90
> degrees to the flight path then back 90 degrees as to move out or in if
> necessary? From this, one would assume the "dead" zone should not be
> judged.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: george w. kennie <mailto:geobet at gis.net>
>
> To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 12:41 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>
>
>
> <<<Calling of box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter
> straight line before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will
> begin
> then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and
> are always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a
> minimum
> of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver. Judging will cease at
> that
> point.>>>
>
>
>
> I think what's being slightly overlooked is the word "minimum". We used to
> be required to call "the box" at the pole, (which is the way it should
> still
> be done, but I can't change that) but some ill informed people had that
> requirement altered. Why do you think that the word "minimum" is inserted
> at
> that point in the wording? It's not because that's where the box needs to
> be called, ( the box can be called at any point between the pole and the
> 15
> meter point) it's because the entry and exit lines, for every maneuver,
> are
> required to be 15 meters in length. This "minimum' requirement specifies
> that this is so, if not by pronouncement then by inference. To me this is
> quite clear, however, the thing that we can't substantiate even by
> inference
> is whether or not the exit line from one maneuver can also serve as the
> entry line for the upcoming maneuver, eliminating the perception of the
> need
> for 30 meters between maneuvers. I have seen instances where this
> requirement created a very real test of the box constraints and would like
> to see a resolution of this particular conflict. My feeling is that a
> superimposition should be acceptable, but that would have to appear in
> writing somewhere.
>
> Georgie
>
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>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Don Ramsey <mailto:don.ramsey at cox.net>
>
> To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:51 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>
>
>
> First, to be clear on the Masters 2/2 Slow Roll Opposite. Center is
> defined
> only after the maneuver ends. Where did it start, where did it end and
> only
> then, was the entire maneuver centered?
>
>
>
> I'm currently gathering information for the next year's judging materials
> so
> this discussion is great. Interesting points on entry and exit lines.
> The
> rules are not clear. Consider this, the box entry must be called 15
> meters
> before the first maneuver begins. Each maneuver begins and ends with a
> straight line. Here's the quotes from the rules:
>
>
> Calling of box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter
> straight line before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will
> begin
> then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and
> are always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a
> minimum
> of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver. Judging will cease at
> that
> point.
>
>
>
> Let's take that a little further. It seems to say, since a line is part
> of
> the first maneuver in a sequence then calling the box entry should be done
> 30 meters before maneuvering starts. I don't think that was the intent of
> the rule.
>
> and more on lines:
>
>
> Lines-All aerobatic maneuvers are started and ended by a horizontal line.
> When no line is flown between two (2) scored maneuvers, the upcoming
> maneuver should be downgraded by two (2) points.
> All lines within a maneuver have a beginning and end which define
> their length. The length of a line should only be graded when a maneuver
> contains several lines with a given relationship, as in a square loop.
>
>
> I don't think entry/exit lines have a beginning and end which define their
> lengths and if they don't they should not be used for centering
> determination. Since the entry and exit lines to a maneuver can and are
> often different lengths that would imply those centered maneuvers where
> they
> are different should be downgraded. A good example would be a turnaround
> of
> a half cuban eight, a centered maneuver then a stall turn for the other
> turnaround. Should the centered maneuver be downgraded in this case since
> the entry and exit lines are of different lengths? Also, the maneuver
> descriptions never say, "Model draws a horizontal line, (remainder of
> description) ...." The rules never say the entry and exit lines must be
> 15
> meters only that they must be there. The implication is, entry/exit
> lines
> should not be used in determining centering.
>
> Must there be 30 meters between maneuvers? I disagree with Derek here.
> Here are the rules on lines.
>
> "(As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and are
> always judged)."
>
>
> then later
>
>
> "The judge should form an image of the forthcoming maneuver based on using
> the straight and level entry identified in section D, Judging Individual
> Maneuvers, as a reference. The absence of a definite entry into a maneuver
> increases the difficulty of judging its precision and competitors will
> recognize this as justification for downgrading. The straight and level
> exit
> from a maneuver is one of the more valuable portions of a maneuver in
> evaluating how well the intended course of the maneuver was followed.
> Therefore, the absence of a well defined straight and level exit should
> also
> result in downgrading. In all cases, straight and level flight means
> flight
> parallel to the flightline, at a constant altitude, and with wings level."
>
> Section D does not include any reference to entry/exit lines. It appears
> there only need be a definite or well defined line into and out of
> maneuvers. That length is not specified. There is also nothing to
> preclude
> the exit line from one maneuver being the entry line into the next.
> Again,
> the maneuver descriptions do not include the entry/exit lines in their
> text.
>
>
>
> This needs to be corrected in the next rule cycle.
>
>
>
> Sorry for the rambling,
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 1:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>
>
>> Straight from the rule book on all counts. The 15 meter rule for
>> straight
>> line applies to entering and leaving the box as well. Refer to page 72.
>>
>> http://www.modelaircraft.org/compreg.asp
>>
>> Calling of box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter
>> straight line before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will
>> begin
>> then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver
>> and
>> are always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a
>> minimum
>> of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver. Judging will cease at
>> that
>> point.
>>
>> If there isn't a defined straight line between maneuvers then the
>> upcoming
>> maneuver is downgraded 2 points (see my comment below). The length of
>> that
>> line should be 30+ meters in order to receive no downgrade.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred Huber
>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:53 PM
>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>>
>> you didn't read the whole thing I posted.... Looks like you responded to
>> the
>> part before "sorry"
>>
>> You have a 15 meter straight line definition... I'm not sure if thats
>> from
>> the rulebook or not... That would be appx 7 fuselage lengths.
>>
>> But.... does that just apply to the enter and leave box? or does there
>> have
>> to be a 30 meter (or 2 X 15 meter segments with the un-judged corrections
>> between them... there's not much room for track corrections this way)
>> straight line between consecutive maneuvers? Or is the way I have
>> thought
>> it was correct... no defined straight line lenght between maneuvers, just
>> a
>> definite straight line established?
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 11:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>>
>>
>>> Fred,
>>>
>>> If what you say is the case then every maneuver would be impossible to
>>> judge
>>> and that is why we have the the following:
>>>
>>> Page 72:
>>>
>>> Calling of box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter
>>> straight line before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will
>>> begin
>>> then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver
>>> and
>>> are always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a
>>> minimum
>>> of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver.
>>>
>>> Page 77:
>>>
>>> . Lines-All aerobatic maneuvers are started and ended by a horizontal
>>> line.
>>> When no line is flown
>>> between two (2) scored maneuvers, the upcoming maneuver should be
>>> downgraded
>>> by two (2) points.
>>>
>>>
>>> The generally accepted length of that line is 15 meters.
>>>
>>> So add 15 meters to the beginning of, and end of, each maneuver and you
>>> can
>>> figure out the center for those maneuvers that have different rolling
>>> elements such as 2/2 point roll followed by an opposite slow roll.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---Original Message-----
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred
>>> Huber
>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 8:57 PM
>>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>>>
>>> OK.. then its impossible to downgrade THIS maneuver for centering if the
>>> straight lines are part of it.... Because there is no definite attitude
>>> of
>>> the model that can be associated with center, and the line start and end
>>> can't be defined, since there's also straight line exit from the
>>> previous
>>> maneuver and entry to the following.
>>>
>>> Sorry.
>>>
>>> Has to be start of rolling and end of rolling for centering reference
>>> and
>>> assumed same length straight at each end. (which can be just one
>>> fuselage
>>> length... maybe less since the length is not defined...)
>>>
>>> If you don't assume same length straight lines... you can't judge center
>>> on
>>> anything.... even a simple loop.
>>>
>>> You can purposely shoot for roll rates that center the inverted.... but
>>> as
>>> noted... a slow roll probably SHOULD be slower roll rate than the rate
>>> for
>>> the 2/2. which would be likely put put you somewhere in the slow roll
>>> portion at center.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:10 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>>>
>>>
>>>> The entire maneuver is judged including the straight lines. Each
>>>> maneuver
>>>> as defined in our rules starts and ends with a straight line.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Earl
>>>> Haury
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 7:55 PM
>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>>>>
>>>> Actually, while the straight line "before" and "after" the maneuver is
>>>> required the names (of the lines) themselves define that they are not
>>>> "included" in the maneuver. Rolls start when the aircraft begins to
>>>> roll
>>>> (for the first element) and end when it stops rolling (the final
>>>> element).
>>>>
>>>> Earl
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 9:19 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Not necessarily - since the maneuver is made up of two different
>>>>> rolling
>>>>> elements the center of the maneuver is the center of the two
>>>>> components
>>>>> including the straight line before and after the maneuver. Since the
>>>>> 2/2
>>>>> point roll will be done a lot faster than the slow roll the maneuver
>>>>> will
>>>>> start early and the 2 point roll will finish long before center prior
>>>>> to
>>>>> the
>>>>> slow roll beginning. What the pilot/judge needs to do is visualize
>>>>> where
>>>>> the maneuver starts including the straight flight portion and where it
>>>>> will
>>>>> end after the slow roll including the straight flight portion and
>>>>> position
>>>>> the maneuver accordingly.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> jivey61 at bellsouth.net
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 5:18 PM
>>>>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on Item20
>>>>>
>>>>> I am directing this to Don Ramsey.
>>>>> Where is the center of the 2/2pt roll,slow roll opposite. It seems it
>>>>> would
>>>>> be between the 2/2pt and the slow roll opposite.
>>>>>
>>>>> TIA
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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