[NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction, correct terms

Tue Aug 15 07:07:31 AKDT 2006

Also isn't the crap angle somewhat of weathervaining.

Pattern Flyer: Matt
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Kane" <getterflash at yahoo.com>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 12:00 PM
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction, correct terms

> The crab angle is the relationship between the flight
> path and fuselage heading in a crosswind situation.
> The crap angle is what happens when you don't correct
> for the crab angle when pulling or pushing into the
> next manuever segment. I am somewhat of an expert in
> demnstrating the crap angle effect.  ;)
> 
> 
> --- John Konneker <jlkonn at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> John,
>> Holy smoke!!!!!!!!!!
>> I think the light bulb is coming on.
>> When you said roll into the wind I thought
>> "What"!!!!!
>> I have a little airplane shaped calendar thingy here
>> on the desk.
>> What the heck...
>> I picked it up and hand flew it into a loop with a
>> crap angle away from me 
>> going right to left and rolled it a little right as
>> I pulled up.
>> I can see what you're talking about!!!
>> JLK
>> 
>> 
>> >From: John Pavlick <idsmail at sbcglobal.net>
>> >To: jlkonn at hotmail.com
>> >CC: jpavlick at idseng.com
>> >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
>> >Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:54:08 -0700 (PDT)
>> >
>> >John,
>> >    There's no crying in Pattern! I hear what
>> you're saying. That was me a 
>> >few years ago. Here's and easy way to sort this
>> out: Roll into the wind. 
>> >Does that make sense? Here's an example: Flying
>> from your right to your 
>> >left, with the wind blowing in (in your face), the
>> plane will be crabbed 
>> >out with a right yaw attitude. When you pull UP
>> elevator for the looping 
>> >segment, roll right. If you're going in the other
>> direction, of course the 
>> >roll direction is reversed as well. Practice this
>> until you start to see 
>> >things cleaning up. What you're looking for is the
>> wings perfectly aligned 
>> >(in the roll axis NOT necessarily the yaw axis) to
>> the track of the loop on 
>> >the vertical points. When you get it down, remember
>> to enter and exit with 
>> >your wings level. This will take some more practice
>> but you'll get it. 
>> >You'll be scoring 10's on those 2 loops in no time!
>> >
>> >   John Pavlick
>> >   http://www.idseng.com
>> >
>> >John Konneker <jlkonn at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >   Dean, Adam and all,
>> >Thanks for the great replies.
>> >Dean, I am beginning to visualize what you meant by
>> "the plane of the plane
>> >staying square to the plane of the flightline"...I
>> think!
>> >I can see that one attempt to correct the problem
>> only results in another.
>> >To be specific flying Sportsman. Takeoff direction
>> from left to right. I
>> >have just completed my 1/2 Reverse Cuban Eight and
>> I am making a ground
>> >track correction on the Straight Flight Back with
>> rudder. This yaws the
>> >nose into the crosswind blowing in my face. I am
>> approaching the downwind
>> >end of the box and need to begin my pull-up in to
>> the looping portion of my
>> >Cuban Eight.
>> >If I do nothing else, starting wings level, as I
>> loop over the top the nose
>> >is now pointing more toward me WITH the crosswind.
>> I can see I am really
>> >beginning to suck dishwater now! I have a big
>> heading error to correct and
>> >it won't be very pretty. I am visualizing the
>> problem, and experienced it
>> >over and over yesterday but I haven't visualized
>> the solution.
>> >Like I said...I could have just sat down on the
>> edge of the runway and
>> >cried!
>> >JLK
>> >
>> >
>> > >From: "Dean Pappas"
>> > >Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> > >To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
>> > >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
>> > >Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:07:23 -0400
>> > >
>> > >Hi John,
>> > >I have long struggled to find a good way to
>> explain this, in print.
>> > >If, rather than wings level, you talk about "the
>> plane of the plane 
>> >staying
>> > >square to the plane of the flightline", it may
>> help. Maybe it won't!
>> > >A 3-D picture would be worth a thousand words.
>> > >
>> > >Even from crabbed level flight, or a properly
>> crabbed vertical, any time
>> > >the elevator is used, the existing crab will turn
>> into unwanted
>> > >wings-not-square
>> > >and the direction of the resulting turn will
>> always be downwind! Adam's
>> > >suggestion is a good one: go handfly it a zillion
>> times.
>> > >Most importantly, flying around holding bootloads
>> of rudder to fly in a
>> > >crosswind will consume your power and airspeed.
>> > >Airspeed (or at least having it available on
>> demand) is your friend in a
>> > >crosswind and the best way to maintain it is to
>> fly the airplane
>> > >uncross-controlled as much as possible.
>> Eventually, you will use very 
>> >very
>> > >small aileron inputs for as much possible, and
>> only use the rudder,
>> > >as Adam says, for fixing the weathervaning that
>> results from airspeed
>> > >changes, such as slowing down just before stall
>> turns and spin entries or
>> > >speeding up as the plane descends. These are
>> almost always judicious
>> > >downwind rudder corrections.
>> > >The aileron inputs will not be corrections,
>> because they will actually 
>> >have
>> > >to happen as the looping action begins. After the
>> fact is too late, and
>> > >then all you have left is rudder, or dropping a
>> wing panel. Of course,
>> > >dropping a wing panel at 1G does very little
>> compared to when you are
>> > >puilling G's.
>> > >
>> > >Hopefully, we will approach this problem from
>> several different angles 
>> >and
>> > >ways of explanatioin, and you will triangulate it
>> before long!
>> > >Then the other aspect of the art that Adam
>> mentioned will start to kick 
>> >in.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Dean Pappas
>> > >Sr. Design Engineer
>> > >Kodeos Communications
>> > >111 Corporate Blvd.
>> > >South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
>> > >(908) 222-7817 phone
>> > >(908) 222-2392 fax
>> > >d.pappas at kodeos.com
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >-----Original Message-----
>> > >From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> >
>> >[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On
>> Behalf Of Jim
>> > >Woodward
>> > >Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:41 AM
>> > >To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
>> > >Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Well said Adam! The only way for the wings to be
>> continuously "level"
>> > >during any radius or loop in a bad cross wind is
>> by rolling the plane.
>> > >Thus, you must continuously roll the plane just
>> to maintain the look of
>> > >wings level through the entire maneuver set.
>> Despite the requirement for
>> > >wind correction to be only done in the yaw axis,
>> the ailerons are the 
>> >most
>> > >important control surface on the plane and are
>> not "set and forget"
>> > >surfaces. If you want to reduce your rudder work
>> 50%, continuously focus
>> > >on
>> > >"wings" level. When the wings are level, the nose
>> will always "seek" to 
>> >go
>> > >into the wind. If the wings are not level, you
>> flash more surface area to
>> > >the wind and will be blown "with" the direction
>> of the wind. If you are
>> > >spot on wings-wise, you will actually find a
>> tendancy to go into the wind
>> > >in
>> > >all but the stalled maneuvers and if at too low a
>> speed in general. 
>> >(stall
>> 
> === message truncated ===>
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> 
> Bob Kane
> getterflash at yahoo.com
> 
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