[SPAM] Re: Re: Take Off & Landing "Reality of a Contest"

Mon May 23 04:31:00 AKDT 2005

Excellant point.

Ed Alt <ed_alt at hotmail.com> wrote:Derek:
Actually, there is a legion of IMAC pilots who can't takeoff or land without 
threatening the safety of of others, mainly the guys at the other 
pilot/judging station. I have regularly seen close calls and dangerous 
displays of model operation at IMAC contests during TO/landing. You have to 
recognize something about the hobby these days. There is a alot of sex 
appeal to IMAC because of the big'n'loud gas airplanes. Everyone wants to 
do it and is is quite often the case that the pilots wallet far outweighs 
his skill and sometimes his common sense. Guys now get into the hobby with 
ease because of ARFs and easy to use equipment, but they don't always learn 
the right way and frequently can't be told how to do it with right or with 
safety in mind. At IMAC contests that I have CD'ed, I made the explicit 
point about the runway environment and how it was required that pilots 
observe the deadline, including the fact that we would disqualify them if 
they violated it. Why? It has proven to be necessary based on 
observations of close scrapes at the many dozens of contests I had attended 
in the past. It was the minimum thing I felt that I had to do to be 
responsible as a CD.

I would say that Pattern is better off keeping the takeoff/landing score in 
some form. It is in fact a measure of pilot skill to be able to safely 
control a model at low airspeed in various wind conditions, while in close 
proximity to the ground, obstacles and people. Although it's not an 
aerobatic flight mode, neither is a straight line between figures, but we 
also measure that. Should we extend the argument to allow banking left or 
right to fix earlier mistakes and just worry about the figures alone, or 
should we measure the skill of the pilots to control the model throughout? 
By having some objective way of measuring it and assigning a score as an 
incentive to try to do it right, you can only make the situation easier to 
manage. Removing it can only heighten the risk of achieving what IMAC has 
currently has bred, i.e., a free-for-all mentality by many pilots.

Ed

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Derek Koopowitz" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:46 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Take Off & Landing "Reality of a Contest"

> Jim,
>
> This is what I've proposed...
>
> I don't think TO/landing are maneuvers that should be scored at all. 
> These
> are legacy maneuvers that at one point in time needed to be scored but in
> todays proficiency age I feel that the maneuvers shouldn't even be in the
> sequence, let alone scored. Scoring well on TO/landing does not a good
> pilot make (grammar purposely phrased that way) and I think precision
> aerobatics should be about aerobatic maneuvers not TO and landing.
>
> I know some incredibly talented race car drivers that can lap a track 
> faster
> than anyone else but have a hard time backing up a car into a parking 
> spot -
> is the point of being a race car driver seeing how well one can park a car
> or how fast one can go around a track?
>
> I would much rather see a great aerobatic flight with a crappy TO/landing
> than see a crappy aerobatic flight with great TO/landing. To me... call 
> the
> box, scoring starts- fly the sequence, call the exit and scoring stops.
> Period. We wouldn't have to worry about wording on rules for TO/landing.
>
> So how do we fix the current problem? I think we really have 3 choices:
>
> 1. Go back to the old rules and score the TO/landing
> 2. Spend an inordinate amount of time rewording/rehashing the new rules 
> to
> fix the problem
> 3. Remove TO/landing completely and not worry about it at all.
>
>
> My preference is for #3 - followed by #1 - both are simple and quick 
> fixes.
> Will #3 happen - probably not - but I guess I can dream/hope.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of Jim Ivey
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 7:45 PM
> To: discussion at nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: Re: Take Off & Landing "Reality of a Contest"
>
> Jerry
> I watched some IMAC nats last year and these guys takeoff while the other
> guy is on his final.Some of the planes were just pointed at the runway and
> turned loose across runway. Maybe that's what we need to do. We don't 
> score
> skills at takeoff or landing anymore.Why not? Did I put a idea in 
> someones
> head?
>
> Jim Ivey
>>
>> From: "Jerry Stebbins" 
>> Date: 2005/05/22 Sun PM 09:46:36 EDT
>> To: 
>> Subject: Re: Take Off & Landing "Reality of a Contest"
>>
>> Maybe so, but someone done writ it wrong and now we got rules that are
>> incomplete, unsafe, and conflicting.
>> Same ol simple "ifn it ain't broke don't fix it" but some thought it
>> was broke, had there own version of a "better way", and rammed it thru.
>> Jerry
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bob Pastorello" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 6:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: Take Off & Landing "Reality of a Contest"
>>
>>
>> > The idea was SUPPOSED to be "Takeoff - no aerobatic manuevers,
>> > doesn't
>> break
>> > safety line = 10". "Landing - finish sequence in whatever
>> > direction, make turns necessary to land, no aerobatic maneuvers, no
>> > breaking the safety
>> line
>> > = 10".....
>> >
>> > Wasn't it ?
>> >
>> > Bob Pastorello
>> > www.rcaerobats.net
>> > rcaerobob at cox.net
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Larry Diamond" 
>> > To: "NSRCA" 
>> > Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 4:57 PM
>> > Subject: Take Off & Landing "Reality of a Contest"
>> >
>> >
>> > >I know there has been much discussion on this, but after CDing a
>> > >contest this weekend, I believe there needs to be a clear
>> > >understanding of what
>> is
>> > > expected in two areas.
>> > >
>> > > 1) When to call "Take-Off complete / Landing commencing". When
>> > > does it need to be called? After exiting the Box for the last
>> > > maneuver for Landing.
>> > > Prior to entering the box for the trim pass on Take-Off. This is
>> > > what makes sense to me from CDing a contest.
>> > >
>> > > 2) Is a Dead-Stick Landing a "Zero Landing"? At the beginning of
>> > > our contest I stated that we would not zero TO / L for calling. So
>> > > we scored all landings. However, if a dead-stick prevents
>> > > completing the prescribed maneuver, then a zero is really the most
>> > > likely result at the NATS. I don't believe this was intended.
>> > >
>> > > The Judging committee should really jump on this and get
>> > > clarification
>> out
>> > > as quickly as possible for the "Official Judge Ruling" People are
>> > > trying to practice this and although seemingly easy on paper, the
>> > > execution of calling and judging properly does get a bit
>> > > confusing...We need to make sure everyone is practicing this
>> > > correctly before the NATS or it will be a potential area of
>> > > concern for the CD's...
>> > >
>> > > Larry Diamond
>> > > NSRCA 3083
>> > >
>> >
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