CAD Program

Sat Mar 26 15:59:02 AKST 2005

Joe:
 Autocadd is about the same: use it or lose it.  At least in my case.  
My brother, who is well versed in this stuff, told me when I was going 
into ot, that, if I didn't stay current, I'd forget it.  How right he 
was!  I haven't used it for about 4 years or so now, and it's 
embarrassing how little I've retained.  Oh, Well.  I'll just learn 
something else; presumably there are more specific packages that may be 
aimed at our type of usage.

Bill Glaze

Joe Lachowski wrote:

> Troy, we use Pro/E in the Army, as well.  Many of our contractors do, 
> as well. It is not $500K per seat. I think it is more on the order of 
> a couple thou or less.  The software also has an annual maintenance 
> cost typically about 10% of the total cost of whatever package one 
> has. Whats even better about ProE is that you can make an  STL file 
> and use it to make a solid model on a number of Rapid Prototyping 
> systems. I happen to have control over two SLA's and one FDM. You can 
> make farely accurate plugs or molds with it for your models<g>. I 
> believe I've actually seen that PC based package on ebay in the past. 
> Pro/E is one of those packages that if you don't use it you lose it.
>
> JL
>
>> From: "Troy A. Newman" <troy_newman at msn.com>
>> Reply-To: discussion at nsrca.org
>> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
>> Subject: Re: CAD Program
>> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 14:08:45 -0700
>>
>> I went a class on Pro Engineer a few years ago. At the time company 
>> (PTC)
>> was touting that the 777 was designed exclusively with Pro E. Also that
>> General Motors used Pro E and its add-ins for vehicle design.
>>
>> For those that don't know Pro E is a modeling program. Instead of  using
>> drawings the parts are modeled. Once they are modeled then you can 
>> export to
>> a drawing very simply and can look at any view or any scale. This is 
>> a very
>> powerful tool. It goes beyond 3D CAD. There are many things that you 
>> can do
>> with Pro-engineer and its ad-ins from Heat load calcs on electronic
>> components, to actual mechanical analysis in what they call 
>> Mechanica. You
>> can have the modeling program actually calculate the size and mass of a
>> counter balance needed on a crankshaft of a single cylinder model 
>> engine. I
>> know because we did that one in the class.
>>
>> PTC the company that sells Pro-E also provides a free or used to 
>> provide a
>> free version that is much toned down....called Pro-Desktop Express. 
>> Its a
>> little more complicated to used but there are books out there that 
>> can help
>> you.
>>
>> From what I understand PTC doesn't really sell Pro-E its a leased 
>> program.
>> and it goes for about 500K a seat. This depends on what kinds of add 
>> ins you
>> need and also provides 24/7 Customer support. I understand that this 
>> is a
>> NASA type budget and we are not building spacecraft.
>>
>> The free version is very versatile for our needs as modelers. I have 
>> been
>> using it for a couple years now. I still have AutoCAD 14 and fall 
>> back on it
>> if I want a simple drawing...ProE and Pro-Desktop requires you to 
>> actually
>> model the part. Its a bit more to play with a  sketch.
>>
>> One thing that Pro-desktop does really well is give you an idea about 
>> wing
>> sections....You can create objects that have your airfoil cross 
>> sections at
>> both ends then just connect the dots to create a solid wing that will
>> actually be a model of your wing. You can then check its relative 
>> stiffness
>> and vary parameters like chord at the root of the airfoil and compare 
>> the
>> stiffness of the two versions. You can then create what they call a 
>> cut for
>> your ailerons or elevators and you can see how these change the 
>> stiffness of
>> the wing section. Its a very powerful tool and its free just need to 
>> learn a
>> little about making it work.
>>
>> Another thing you can do is create a fuse and a wing..then determine 
>> where
>> you want the CG locations and with some parameters it will place the 
>> wing in
>> the right location for you. If you change a sweep angle or a taper 
>> ratio or
>> even span....the program can automatically move the wing to the proper
>> location based on your original criteria. Again as I said very very
>> powerful.
>>
>>  You might look into it...If you are looking for something really 
>> good. Not
>> always the easiest path to your goal...but a very good product. And 
>> its Free
>> or used to be free not sure if it still is. I have been using it for 
>> a few
>> years now.
>>
>> Troy Newman
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bill Glaze" <billglaze at triad.rr.com>
>> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 1:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: CAD Program
>>
>>
>> > Jerry:
>> > Many thanks for your reply.  I was disappointed about AutoCad in 
>> that it
>> > was great for topograph maps, and great for drafting, (after all, 
>> that's
>> > what it calls itself) yet wouldn't do this simple wire drawing
>> > requirement of mine.  I'm keeping your communication and will be 
>> looking
>> > into your link when I get a moment.  Actually, I'm pretty interested.
>> > It's common knowledge that the B-777 was designed without a single 
>> paper
>> > drawing, .(or so the legend goes; don't see how) but I doubt that 
>> Boeing
>> > was using a $3500 Cadd program, either.  I've heard of programs where
>> > the program developer had a software engineer set up a desk in the
>> > client's office for on-site help of the most immediate kind.  Wish I
>> > could afford to have someone do that for me!
>> >
>> > Bill Glaze
>> >
>> > Jerry Budd wrote:
>> >
>> > > Bill,
>> > >
>> > > I don't know first hand because I've never tried it but considering
>> > > who all is using it I can't imagine it wouldn't.  Ashlar has a much
>> > > higher end product called Cobalt that does all of what Graphite does
>> > > plus the high end solid modelling functions, but it's way more $$$
>> > > (nearly $4k).  On the other hand it compares favorably with ProE 
>> which
>> > > is ~$20k.
>> > >
>> > > All of the Ashlar products are available for a fully functional two
>> > > week trial via download here:
>> > >
>> > > http://www.ashlar.com/demo/index.shtml
>> > >
>> > > You might consider downloading Graphite, importing your old CAD file
>> > > from AutoCad and trying it.
>> > >
>> > > I think the important thing to consider is this.  There are a lot of
>> > > CAD programs available out there with a lot of capability that are
>> > > downright CHEAP (some are shareware/free).  Most of them are quite
>> > > difficult to use and require a significant learning curve to be able
>> > > to do anything of value at all.  I have found it better to pay a
>> > > little bit of $ to have a CAD tool that has almost no learning curve
>> > > at all as I frequently go months at a time without using the
>> > > software.  When I go back to use it after a layoff it only takes 
>> a few
>> > > minutes (I mean single digit here) to be back up and working. It's
>> > > that easy.
>> > >
>> > > I currently use an old version of Ashlar DrawingBoard on my Mac 
>> that I
>> > > bought 8 or 9 years ago (still runs fine on OS 10.3.8 under 
>> Classic).
>> > > I downloaded the trial version of Graphite for OS X last night 
>> and it
>> > > has the same intuitive interface.  The main reason I'm thinking of
>> > > upgrading is to pick up the ability to import/export a much greater
>> > > variety of file formats than what DrawingBoard handles. Being 
>> full OS
>> > > X native is a plus also.  BTW - FWIW, all of the Ashlar products are
>> > > offered for both Windoz and Mac.
>> > >
>> > > Thx, Jerry
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> Jerry:
>> > >> Can you take intermediate cuts with it, and it will come up with an
>> > >> inference of the station?  that was my main complaint with Autocad
>> > >> Bill Glaze
>> > >>
>> > >> Jerry Budd wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> Ashlar Graphite, far and away the easiest CAD program out there
>> > >>> (important for CAD neophytes like me), it's a direct descendant of
>> > >>> Ashlar Vellum.  The learning curve with it is about a half hour
>> > >>> long. Once you use it you won't want to touch anything else.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> It's also fully capable, Scaled Composites used it to design
>> > >>> SpaceShipOne and White Knight.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> It is a little pricey but there are several upgrade discounts
>> > >>> available, depending on what software you currently own, where you
>> > >>> work, etc.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> http://www.ashlar.com/products/graphite.html
>> > >>>
>> > >
>> >
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