Rules Changes----Advancement

[David Lockhart]

Mark,

It is rare and an exception - I guess I don't see the harm in keeping a rule
around that would give "us" some teeth to prevent a trophy hog.

I am a little concerned (as MattK) that if we totally deleted the point
system, we might encourage a trophy hog.

I'm thinking we have room to adjust the point system without deleting it.

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:07 PM
Subject: RE: Rules Changes----Advancement


Dave,

Have you actually experienced any "trophy hogs"?  Maybe I'm naïve, but I
haven't really experienced this.  We've on rare occasion had someone "hang"
in a class for an extra half season in hopes of doing well at the Nats
before moving up, but even that's been rare.

We always talk/worry about the trophy hog, but I guess I see that as a
hollow fear from my end.  Just curious what you've actually experienced in
the sandbagging ranks.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of David Lockhart
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 7:42 PM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: Fw: Rules Changes----Advancement

I agree with Matt that changes in this area should be made with caution.

I like the idea that a pilot could fly a higher class for fun and to test
the waters, and then drop back to their regular class.

I like the idea that somebody having an off year (reduced time or equipment
in a given year) can drop back a class to make it easier for them to compete
and have fun.

I have no problem with a pilot "demoting" themselves to stay in the event
and have fun (so long as they don't end up perpetually at the top of their
new chosen class).

I think very few people are interested in forcing a pilot to "move up"
simply because they accumulated enough points - pilots should move up when
they have aquired the skills to fly in the next class, and when they are
clearly superior to others in their class - ie, they are sand-baggers /
trophy hogs which I don't think are good for the event.

The point system is rarely used - but I think it would be easy enough to
enforce - most NSRCA Districts track points for the annual District Champs
using some kind of system.  It wouldn't be too hard to use data captured in
the District Champs tracking to figure out AMA advancement points.  I think
we are fortunate that most pilots do move up at appropriate times, but
having a mechanism in place to pressure a few exceptions is a nice option to
have.  I would absolutely support using the AMA advancement point system to
force a pilot to move up who clearly belonged in a higher class, but stayed
put to be a trophy hog.

To that end, I think the point system should remain on the books - and maybe
we could modify it such that it would be more likely to force trophy hogs to
move up, and less likely to ever push a career guy out of his class.  There
are a number of ways that could be done.

Dave

----- Original Message -----
From: Rcmaster199 at aol.com
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: Rules Changes----Advancement


I believe that this may open a different can of worms. It's true that some
guys attend contests simply for the fun and camaraderie of the flying, but
there is a whole nother set of troops that attends to compete. In my
opinion, this is the largest of the two, by wide margin. These folks want to
win, place or show and really try hard to do their best. The former group
may not care as much about doing its best; just being there is good enough.
But it is still an extremely important group nontheless.

It seems to me that there are a bunch of guys, (Masters in D3 is a good
example) that are very good in their present class(most of us are quite
evenly matched), and some of these may decide to drop down a class and park
for a while. Taking that skill level down to Advanced could demoralize the
Advanced level guys that want to really compete, and could actually have the
exact opposite effect from that desired. I wouldn't want any Advanced
competitor to leave the sport because of an infusion of Masters class guys
re-entering the class

We agree on the fact that the points system is silly and unenforceable.

Having said all that, I wouldn't be aversed to a trial run of such a rule.
Reconvene after the trial period was over and make a decision on its
success--failure. Then make a final decision and have buy-in from the CB up
front to either make a change, or not. Having CB buy-in up front will
alleviate some of the acremonious debate we have seen in past issues.

I recommend caution either way. This indeed is unchartered territory, at
least in my 27 years, and demands careful thought. I like the fact that the
committee is thinking in different and challenging ways to improve the sport
for everyone, eventhough THIS committee's charter is to build schedules and
not rules.


MattK

PS- one more thought on this: it may turn out that no self respecting
Masters competitor will move down to Advanced, or Advanced down to
Intermediate. Then this suggested approach could work. Convincing the AMA CB
will be the trick



In a message dated 3/8/2005 4:20:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
patternrules at earthlink.net writes:
From: Troy A. Newman
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Sent: 3/8/2005 2:18:31 PM
Subject: [SPAM] Rules changes Advancement


Buddy,
I have been really quiet lately. I don't think the changes you are looking
at are going to increase pattern participation. The weight and box limits
in my opinion are good and don't need jacking with......

I know you and Don are working hard at it. We on the sequence committee are
as well. I don't think changing the box is going to help us. I really don't
think changes to the weights or sizes is going to help us....

I want to weigh in here so to speak on something that I feel will help
pattern grow in changes to the rule book. I feel most changes to the rule
book are going to make us more elite or a more secret way you have to do
things. Guys that are even in our ranks don't read the rules so why make
them even more specialized..and so on.

BUT there is a single set of things in the book that I feel and others feel
need to be addressed.

Advancement to the next class.

I think we should just NIX all advancement rules. Let the pilot fly
whatever wants too and when ever he wants too. Let him jump around if
needed. The reason its not used. I have been from sea to shinning sea ATL
to CA and have never actually heard anybody keeping track of their points.
The AMA says its up to the pilot and they provide a little card to fill
out. I have been flying pattern since 86 and have never seen one of the
cards! Its not enforceable. There is no database to keep the records. It
takes too much time and energy. We spend our time and energy in other
places more rightfully so....So lets eliminate the advancement system.

Reason #2 is we don't have the numbers we once had to push people up to
another class when they may not be ready. SO would we rather push a pilot
up to the next class and maybe out by peer pressure...... or have him
staying in the same class.

My opinion is I don't care if Dave Brown himself came back and flew
Advanced. I think we could all benefit from him being a the contest and
participating in the events.

Prime example I witnessed two district Champions last season move up to the
next class and neither one was ready to go. But they felt obligated to go
since they won the D champs. The reality was that they went to enough
contests to get the points. The reality also is they don't have the skills
they needed to learn in the previous class.

Pattern is about perfection and precision. I see our pattern ranks getting
smaller and smaller and the skill sets getting weaker and weaker. The pilot
that survives the Intermediate sequence for a couple years maybe even wins
some stuff around locally then moves up. But the reality is just because he
won everything locally with maybe 2-3-4 pilot doesn't mean he is now ready
for the next show. The quality of flying in the lower classes seems to be
lower that it has been in the past. Our numbers seem to be much much lower
too. Pattern flying is about perfection and flying that perfect sequence. I
think if we eliminate the advancement stuff over time we will gain back
some of the old dogs for another run. And new pilots that have not learned
the required skills can get them before moving on. It has been brought up
that back in the old days pre-turnaround...a local guy would dust off his
model and support he clubs local event. Maybe if we let him fly whatever he
wants then we might get him to come back after 5-10 years off. This could
also could encourage new people. No pressure to move up. Enjoy the
competition at  a level you are comfortable. Right now we reward any margin
of success with more and more challenge. Maybe this pushes people away.
Many people in their lives are content to be right where they are. They
want to play and have fun with the group...but are not comfortable up with
the next group. WE SHOULD NOT TURN THEM AWAY!

Some pilots will never be ready for a jump from Intermediate to advanced.
regardless of the current large steps between a couple classes. I feel that
there are some career Intermediate pilots like my father in-law Jerry. He
is one of the best pilots at his local club. He is the man for test
flights, and advice among the crowd. But He is happy and challenged with
Intermediate. He will continue to be happy and challenged with it for a
long time to come.

The cheer from the crowd in the awards of the contest is always move
up...move up. Especially in Sportsman.Is pushing people away...in my mind.
We need to pat them on the back and say good job...not jump IN and get
eaten by the sharks.

I think this defeats ourselves a little.

If we let someone jump around classes and he got in too deep he could
always come back without AMA, DVP, and so on approval. Just fly what ever
class you want to fly!

The question is would we rather have a guy sand bag a little and still have
him at an event or call him a trophy hog and push him out. This goes for
older more seasoned pilots as well. The guy is getting up there a little in
years like my buddy Pastorello <picking on you man I like to pick on Bob
because he fights back!>  and  flew at a very high level of competition but
now wants to not practice all the time...maybe doesn't have the best model
for the job....Let him move back from a masters to an advanced and fly
there. He has a bunch of knowledge and can help people at the events. Plus
sometimes he is even fun to fly with!

Would we rather have him or Not?

This does a couple things. Keeps the pilots that can't make it at the
higher level what ever the reason...and it also improves the skills of the
lower classes.  A newer pilot will have to be more prepared to win an event
and he will not readily jump to the next class as there is nobody to fly
against in the current class. Competition is a motivation factor. If a guy
is out there doing his two loops really well...then it will inspire the
another pilot to "work on my two loops because old Bob is going to kick my
butt when we get to the contest next week."

For most people the biggest factor for them being here in Pattern today is
they wanted to learn to fly better. But that success and flying better
today pushes them into another class that is more difficult yet. You know
Mark Martin is still running the Busch Series and he has been a Cup
champion and Busch Champion before too. Even though many look at the Busch
and Truck series as a kind of minor leagues to the Cup cars.

Just some thoughts

TN

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