Judge Feedback - Winning... Knowledge or Talent?

[Mike Austin]

Lance, I think you're on the mark here. I flew my first full year of Intermediate this past summer and many times a judge would give me some helpful hints on things to improve. It sure didn't help me at that contest because I had not practiced it for it to become automatic yet. But what it did do was give me notes to take to the next practice session and work on. I also watched other fellow competitors in my class get advise and it didn't change anything in the final outcome of that contest. Now I'm sure there are some good pilots that can make the quick adjustment but I'll bet most of us have to make it a routine in practice for it to stick. Besides, if all that advise would have been instantaneous I could have beat Keith at least once. 

Mike Austin
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: patterndude at comcast.net 
  To: discussion at nsrca.org 
  Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 2:48 PM
  Subject: Re: Judge Feedback - Winning... Knowledge or Talent?


  Keith,
  I agree.  You make the point well.  It's an interesting point that maybe feedback should only be given to "lower classes" but I'm not sure i agree.  Knowing what you did wrong and being able to readjust your flying to compensate are two totally different skills.   However, the complexity increases substantially for Masters and FAI.  These pilots are good so just because you saw a downgrade doesn't mean that it will be repeated and the pilot probably saw it too, he just messed up.  THe chances of any advice you have being on the mark get slimmer as you move up the foodchain.  I think feedback at this level is best left to arrangements between the pilot and his caller or prearranged observer.  These are amply available at contests and can provide this critical information to the pilot.  
     Of course, this same approach is availabel to everyone but Sportsman/Intermediates don't typically think about this and when you give feedback, even if they already saw what you saw, they are more likely to be happy just to get confirmation to what they were already thinking.  I know what it feels like to know that half the people at the contest can see more mistakes in my flying than I can. I pretty much feel this way all the time, so all feedback is welcome. 
     Sometimes we are judges, other times we watch our friends fly.  Being in the judges chair is no different from sitting in your armchair.  If you see something that your friend will benefit from knowing, let him know.  He still has to execute it.  Why keep him in the dark?
  --Lance


  --
  District 6 AVP 
  www.aeroslave.com

    -------------- Original message -------------- 

    I can understand the comments I'm hearing from the FAI contingent for FAI and possibly Masters.

    Now let's talk about the lower classes. 

    Should the winner of a lower class win because they are the best pilot, or because their competition is kept in the dark? 

    From comments here it seems that some would be upset if a judge let their competitor know about something they were not aware of. If a judge tells a Sportsman or Intermediate pilot they were out of the box or their square was a rectangle why should their competitors be upset? To be upset suggests that you want your competitor kept in the dark because you're afraid you can't beat them if they are made aware of what they're doing wrong.

    I for one regularly point out mistakes to those I'm flying against, and others do the same for me. For that matter I call for those I fly against whether they're in my club or not, and when I'm standing there as their caller my objective is to help them get the best flight possible. I KNOW I've given advice that may have helped people beat me, so what? If they beat me it's because they were better than me. If I win I want it to be because I was better than the other pilots and not because we have rules that inhibit them being told they're flying a maneuver wrong. Give them the info and put them on a level playing field. 

    Everyone in the lower classes enjoys winning a contests, but that's not the focus (for me at least). I'm there to improve and have fun hanging around my pattern buddies. Even if I win a lower class I know I'm still not the best pilot, clearly the majority of the guys at the contest could kick my back-side. So why get so hung up on winning in the lower classes? Give us all the information possible so maybe one day we can be up there with you serious guys. Until then we're just fighting about who's the best not as good as most pilot.

    Keith Black

    ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Andre Bouchard 
      To: discussion at nsrca.org 
      Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:22 PM
      Subject: Re: Judge Feedback


      Philosophically, I believe that judges providing feedback to contestants, or contestants soliciting feedback during a contest is inappropriate, if not unethical.  If the feedback were shared among all contestants, then maybe no inequities would be created, but this is not what happens in practice, nor can it practically.

      I appreciate the interest in nurturing the sport and helping the newcomer, but who decides when a person gets feedback and when they do not.  Terry suggests feedback might be permissible in Sportsman.  I can see the value in that, but again, unless the feedback for each contestant is shared with all the contests in the class, someone is being advantaged or disadvantaged.  How is letting one guy have a re-flight when his engine dies during a round any different from giving the same guy a pointer about his flying and not his competition?

      It is not just the Sportsman pilot that the feedback is being given to; in my experience, judge feedback, judge initiated or contestant initiated, occurs in all classes at most contests.  At major contests, for example the World Championships, care is taken to avoid contact between judges and contestants.  Why?...To avoid biasing the results.  It is a matter of fairness, and of ethics/professionalism.

      If we are going to openly give feedback at contests, then we need formal guidelines in the same way we need guidelines for judging maneuvers--uniform application.

      I think a better forum for the newcomer to get feedback on his flying would be to have pattern seminars (flying) along the lines of what was done in Houston in spring 2004.

      Andre' 

      ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Terry Terrenoire 
        To: discussion at nsrca.org 
        Cc: discussion at nsrca.org 
        Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:55 PM
        Subject: Re: Judge Feedback


        While I certainly respect Earl's comments, he has a long history that gives him some insite, I cold not disagree more. Taken as a whole they have great merit, but i don't see them applying to the Sportsman level. I some cases I have seen Sportsman entrants fly maneuvers the way they believed they should look, but were completely wrong. most of the constructive criticisms I have rendered from the chair were of a very general nature. "establish a line between manuvers", "call box entries and exits" "if you get the wings level before entry your loops will be easier to keep on path"

        I don't think the judes will be saying anything that causes conflict between them when critiquing at the Sportsman level. All the comments I have made to these pilots has been genuinely appreciated.

        We have to remember that a lot of them have noone at their home field to help them. They may be trying this for the first time, and if we can give them some good help, it may bring them back!!

        Terry T.


        On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:15:04 -0600 "Earl Haury" <ehaury at houston.rr.com> writes:
          Here are some considerations regarding judges providing feedback to competitors the we should address. 

          The key word is "competitors". Judges score individuals performances in competitions that are held to ascertain the relative skills of competitors to perform according to stated rules and descriptions. Being a competition - one should assume that flyers present their patterns to the unbiased judge sets and the let scores describe the ranking. 

          The presumption is that the competitors arrive prepared to compete. Those who have worked the hardest on this preparation will (and should) generally excel. A pattern contest isn't intended to be a training ground, but a review of achievement and peer comparison. Judges who provide feedback have good intentions, but there are questions that deserve attention. Isn't the job of the judge to provide the correct score for each maneuver? Is it appropriate for the judge to (mis)direct attention to make notations for post flight feedback? Will the feedback be consistent to all competitors, or "buddy biased"? Is it fair to my competition for judges to point out my errors so that I can correct them in subsequent flights? If judges with largely different scores on a specific maneuver offer feedback and disagree - then what? In the latter, will this disagreement influence a judge to change standards mid-round? What if some wish to

          I realize that the gist of the feedback issue is to benefit the newbie, but the above points apply here also. We seem to accept that anyone, without practice or proper equipment or preparation (reading the rules), should be able to fly successfully in some form of "beginner" class. This doesn't happen - and we've fiddled with the rules of the beginner class for years to little avail. Unfortunately, the judges feedback at a contest isn't going to help the unprepared. What will help is mentoring - but not from the judges chair! 

          The best place to help the newbie is at the practice field where everything can be addressed. Coach these folks, provide feedback and assistance. Judge flights, take notes, and critique. Help trim their airplane, be supportive with equipment maintenance, etc. Get them prepared for those first contests, call for them, critique their flights, evaluate their scores, help them in every way as a coach and friend, and pattern will gain in numbers. Just don't do this from the judges chair - judging is the only job then. 

          Earl



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