AMA MASTER'S unknown?

Fri Jan 7 11:17:08 AKST 2005

Big, loud ships doing something similar to us.
That's what's endangering the one club I belong to.
Oh, by the way, since aerobatic planes (note the general term) are a problem, the West Windsor Club contest is no more.

Dean

Dean Pappas 
Sr. Design Engineer 
Kodeos Communications 
111 Corporate Blvd. 
South Plainfield, N.J. 07080 
(908) 222-7817 phone 
(908) 222-2392 fax 
d.pappas at kodeos.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ed Miller
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 3:12 PM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: Re: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

No, instead the pattern ships of old have been replaced with 30 to 40 lb ships at 120 db that either fly in the next county or hover for 15 minutes in the middle of the runway. Progress is a wonderful thing : )
Ed M.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: DaveL322 at comcast.net 
To: discussion at nsrca.org 
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

Darn good thing too.  In the past 10 years I've belonged to about 8 different clubs in NJ.  10 years ago, 1 or 2 of the fields/clubs may have been able to support and tolerate pre-turnaround pattern.  Today, none of them would support old style AMA pattern - the 110 mph planes with huge overfly requirements and the 105 db engines creating a huge noise footprint.

Regards,

Dave Lockhart
DaveL322 at comcast.net

-------------- Original message -------------- 

Since FAI turn around was started we've geared our entire sport in the USA to mimic it and it's been driven by FAI ever since . 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Dean  <mailto:d.pappas at kodeos.com> Pappas 
To: discussion at nsrca.org 
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 1:05 PM
Subject: RE: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

Thanks Gene,
As I mentioned before: we have, as a culture, a tendency to keep making each skill level harder or more interesting until it breaks, then we fix it and start over again. Maybe you have to have been in the event for ever to see it, but I think you have put your finger right on what Masters ought to be.

Anybody out there remember old D-Novice?
Dean Pappas

Dean Pappas 
Sr. Design Engineer 
Kodeos Communications 
111 Corporate Blvd. 
South Plainfield, N.J. 07080 
(908) 222-7817 phone 
(908) 222-2392 fax 
d.pappas at kodeos.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On Behalf Of gene.maurice at comcast.net
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 12:49 PM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: Re: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

To Whom It May Concern:

I am a Masters flier and I DON'T want to fly FAI or FAI like sequences. For me personally, Masters is a destination. If I wanted to fly finals and unknowns, then I would fly FAI. I fly Masters and will stay in Masters because I don't want to, nor can I for that matter, effectively fly the FAI sequences. If people want more challenge than Masters affords, I would respectfully suggest that they consider flying FAI. Again, for me personally, the difficulty of the current and prior Masters sequences are all that I can handle, and even then I'm a perennial bottom feeder. Why in the world do we need two classes that are for all intents and purposes equal? 

I believe there is a fair contingent of fliers who are like me: good enough to fly their current class without embarrassing themselves, not good enough to ever win, their lives only allow a minimal amount of practice, but continue to do this because IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE FUN!!!!. Why must we continually tinker with Masters. Don't get me wrong, I like the periodic change in the schedules. I don't even mind the ever increasing difficulty, even though it has made me even LESS competitive. Again, I submit, if you are not sufficiently challenged by Masters, FLY FAI!!! 

--
Gene Maurice 
gene.maurice at comcast.net 
Plano, TX

-------------- Original message -------------- 

Bob:

I am not taking any sides here either, as I don't fly Masters.  However, If Masters is to be an ending class paralleling FAI, then perhaps either a finals sequence, or a finals and unknown are appropriate.  This puts it on the same level as FAI which is what many have told me they thought Masters should be.  This will give the same level of difficulty as FAI, but with all the associated rules and sequences totally controlled by the USA.  

Having been USA Team Manager 4 times, I totally agree that the caller becomes an integral part of a successful pilot, especially in the unknowns.  Having a known finals sequence is less demanding on the caller, but requires the Masters pilot to learn a second, much more difficult sequence.  

Keep in mind that this would only effect the NATS.  I would push for a rule that makes flying the finals sequence at a local contest illegal!  This is the way it is in FAI as well.  Finals and unknowns are only flown at National and International competitions.  This keeps everyone who has no interest in flying at a Nationals from having to learn anything other than the Masters pattern.  

A poll would be interesting, but I would only allow those that have flown at the last couple of NATS to be involved, pushing the rule that any extra sequences would only be flown at the NATS finals.  

Anyway, my $0.02...

Tony Stillman
Radio South
3702 N. Pace Blvd.
Pensacola, FL 32505
1-800-962-7802
www.radiosouthrc.com <http://www.radiosouthrc.com/> 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bob  <mailto:rcaerobob at cox.net> Pastorello 
To: discussion at nsrca.org 
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

I guess since I never take a position on anything, I should probably do so on this -- so -- here 'tis.

1.  This is a genuine yes/no POLL question of the MASTERS pilots only....and needs to be carefully administered, IF the Board is interested in opening this one.
2.  If the POLL has at least 2/3 majority, then the next question should be designed to find out how crazy we (Masters) pilots are about having our scores judged by JUDGES WHO HAVE NEVER SEEN THE SEQUENCE  and 
3.  How crazy we are about the totally-impossible-to-fairly-administer influence of the "team".  At this level of competitions (you guys are talking about the NATS FINALS, for G---s sake!!!) I would be hard pressed to say it will be "fair" to have the outcome determined by who had the best caller (or the most effective team).  Not everyone can do that...  and finally ....
4.  MASTERS is supposed to be the Top AMA class....as such, philosophically, I think it should be the best - the VERY best - of precision, smoothness, and gracefulness....

AND implementing an Unknown turns all that back into "IMPRESSION" judging....

I'm not in favor of it;  won't be; won't try to persuade others to be; and believe wholeheartedly that if a pilot is strongly committed to flying Unknowns that he go play IMAC.  Then fly "Pattern" for precision, practiced, smooth and skillfully-executed "routines".

Bob Pastorello
NSRCA 199  AMA 46373
rcaerobob at cox.net
www.rcaerobats.net <http://www.rcaerobats.net/> 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Ed Deaver <mailto:divesplat at yahoo.com>  
To: discussion at nsrca.org 
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

Flying an Unknown truely does make it a 2 person flight.  I would still welcome the opportunity as the challange and thrill(flying well or goofing up and trying to collect yourself to fly the next manuever) is really great.  

I don't know if it really identifies the callers ability, as much as the teams ability.  Another thought depends on how much time is allowed to prepare also.

ed

rcaerobob at cox.net wrote:

Before I'd answer whether I wanted one or not, I'd like to have an understanding of what, specifically, the unknown in Masters would "reveal". If pattern is about precision piloting that could be a different thing than an ability to have a good caller....

Just my ignorant opinion.

Bob P.
> 
> From: "Grow Pattern" 
> Date: 2005/01/06 Thu AM 11:25:48 EST
> To: , 
> 
> Subject: AMA MASTER'S unknown?
> 
> How does this list feel about a Masters Nat's final that was different to 
> the regular schedule. OR, even an unknown in the final to make it more than 
> just three more of the same flown in the heats.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Eric.

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