AMA MASTER'S unknown?

Thu Jan 6 18:53:59 AKST 2005

Wow, I believe if I made it to the finals I would find it fairly interesting as is.

Dan
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Grow Pattern 
  To: discussion at nsrca.org 
  Sent: January 06, 2005 7:08 PM
  Subject: Re: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

  To be absolutely clear, the question is asking about making the Nats Finals interesting for those who attend. 

  Not anything else.  

  Eric.
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Bob Pastorello 
    To: discussion at nsrca.org 
    Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 7:22 PM
    Subject: Re: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

    And I don't disagree with you in that respect.... you may be correct.  There are a LOT more Masters' pilots who won't be finalists, ever, I guess.  So go ahead, and change it to make it more elitist, more exclusive, more discriminatory by design.  Have a ball with it.
        But - as others slightly more perceptive than I *know* - what happens at the NATS can sometimes be used by people to press their agenda into the "regular" events.
        IF you're proposing with Eric to add Unknowns to the NATS ONLY, then I sure have no beef with that, as I likely would never, ever, have to be concerned about running into it.  I honestly don't care what you do at the NATS, as long as it doesn't impact the contests that the MAJORITY of pattern fliers attend which are LOCAL events.
        Tweak away, with Grow Pattern in the lead!!!

    Bob Pastorello
    NSRCA 199  AMA 46373
    rcaerobob at cox.net
    www.rcaerobats.net

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Archie Stafford 
      To: discussion at nsrca.org 
      Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:08 PM
      Subject: RE: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

      I think I'm partial to the unknowns because I've never really been overly concerned with a caller.  Yes, I understand if I haven't flown a sequence that it the caller is VERY important, but I'm not someone who has to hear the maneuver 2/3 of the way through or anything like that.  At the NATS I don't think it is a problem finding a "qualified" caller.  No one from my home field goes to the NATS (actually that's incorrect, my father is a site director and another pilot is a line chief, however these are both useless to me at the NATS.  I think if the caller attended the announcement of the "unknowns" with the pilots on Wednesday night as they do in FAI, then I don't think it would be that big of a problem.  You have all evening plus the next morning to go over the sequence and kind of see how things flow.  Even if it was as simple as changing the sequence of the maneuvers that are in the pattern it would add to the level of difficulty.  I think a lot of pilots even in Masters now would have a problem flying the sequence if you flew the same sequence but made them roll the opposite direction they do naturally.  Now, even flying the SAME sequence some pilots who might win otherwise would have a major problem winning the contest.  Now who is the better pilot, the pilot who flies the sequence well rolling either direction, or the pilot that almost crashes his airplane because of rolling the other direction?  I will admit naturally I roll better to the right than I do the left, but if I was in the finals of masters and someone out flies me because he can roll either way, he is the better pilot, and I think that is the overall goal is to determine the best pilot, not who practices the most.  I think the pilots who make the finals in Masters are competent enough to be able to fly an unknown sequence and fly it well.

      Arch

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      From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Grow Pattern
      Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 7:00 PM
      To: discussion at nsrca.org
      Subject: Re: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

      Archie,

                   I am particularly interested in what you say because as a person who actually attends the Nat's, you are therefore well positioned  to have and entertain new ideas. As a person who makes it to the finals you are both experiential and a potential who would fly this stuff. You are more than just a theorist. How do other ex-finalist think?

      The subject heading says unknowns not impossibles....The maneuvers would not (be intended to) be more difficult. Just stringing them together would be difficult to sort the finalists out...

      Regards,

      Eric.

        ----- Original Message ----- 

        From: Archie Stafford 

        To: discussion at nsrca.org 

        Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:47 PM

        Subject: RE: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

        I think you can fly unknowns and also make them very precise and smooth.  Look at the FAI finals.  Other than the roller I think the sequence flowed very well and the top pilots made it look like they had been flying it for a long time.  Even if you used past sequences or rearranged the current sequence.  

        I do not think this makes it a "team" event with the caller.  Most pilots have the callers they generally use and that person usually knows when the person they are calling for likes to hear the next maneuver.  Also if you use maneuvers that have been previously used or maneuvers that are reasonably well known then you shouldn't have a judging problem.  If this is going to be used at the NATS finals, then the judging is usually reasonably good anyway.  I'm sure there will be varying opinions on that, but for the most part judging in the finals is overall very good.  

        The better pilots are going to make an unknown sequence look smooth and precise no matter how many times they have flown it.  I think unknowns definitely help you determine who the best pilot is.  

------------------------------------------------------------------------

        From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Bob Pastorello
        Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:40 PM
        To: discussion at nsrca.org
        Subject: Re: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

        I guess since I never take a position on anything, I should probably do so on this -- so -- here 'tis.

        1.  This is a genuine yes/no POLL question of the MASTERS pilots only....and needs to be carefully administered, IF the Board is interested in opening this one.

        2.  If the POLL has at least 2/3 majority, then the next question should be designed to find out how crazy we (Masters) pilots are about having our scores judged by JUDGES WHO HAVE NEVER SEEN THE SEQUENCE  and 

        3.  How crazy we are about the totally-impossible-to-fairly-administer influence of the "team".  At this level of competitions (you guys are talking about the NATS FINALS, for G---s sake!!!) I would be hard pressed to say it will be "fair" to have the outcome determined by who had the best caller (or the most effective team).  Not everyone can do that...  and finally ....

        4.  MASTERS is supposed to be the Top AMA class....as such, philosophically, I think it should be the best - the VERY best - of precision, smoothness, and gracefulness....

        AND implementing an Unknown turns all that back into "IMPRESSION" judging....

        I'm not in favor of it;  won't be; won't try to persuade others to be; and believe wholeheartedly that if a pilot is strongly committed to flying Unknowns that he go play IMAC.  Then fly "Pattern" for precision, practiced, smooth and skillfully-executed "routines".

        Bob Pastorello
        NSRCA 199  AMA 46373
        rcaerobob at cox.net
        www.rcaerobats.net

          ----- Original Message ----- 

          From: Ed Deaver 

          To: discussion at nsrca.org 

          Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 3:54 PM

          Subject: Re: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

          Flying an Unknown truely does make it a 2 person flight.  I would still welcome the opportunity as the challange and thrill(flying well or goofing up and trying to collect yourself to fly the next manuever) is really great.  

          I don't know if it really identifies the callers ability, as much as the teams ability.  Another thought depends on how much time is allowed to prepare also.

          ed

          rcaerobob at cox.net wrote:

            Before I'd answer whether I wanted one or not, I'd like to have an understanding of what, specifically, the unknown in Masters would "reveal". If pattern is about precision piloting that could be a different thing than an ability to have a good caller....

            Just my ignorant opinion.

            Bob P.
            > 
            > From: "Grow Pattern" 
            > Date: 2005/01/06 Thu AM 11:25:48 EST
            > To: , 
            > 
            > Subject: AMA MASTER'S unknown?
            > 
            > How does this list feel about a Masters Nat's final that was different to 
            > the regular schedule. OR, even an unknown in the final to make it more than 
            > just three more of the same flown in the heats.
            > 
            > Regards,
            > 
            > Eric.
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