AMA MASTER'S unknown?

Thu Jan 6 15:35:08 AKST 2005

I don't think the NATS is an "elitist" event.  I think the NATS purpose is
to determine the BEST pilot in a given class.  That is why it is a contest.
There are people who go to the NATS to have a good time, see friends, and
generally have a good time.  There are others who go to compete as well as
see old friends.  I think the ones who go to compete want to determine who
the best pilot is.  I really enjoy the competition side of the NATS or
anything else.  I enjoy Pylon Racing, IMAC flying, or even a local club fun
fly.  I love the grace and precision of pattern, and just by flying pattern
I am a much better pilot for anything else I do.  Overall I think the
competition at the NATS is great.  I think the judging overall is excellent.
Just from watching last year, I think everyone in the finals finished where
they should have.  I'm sure there were incidents in the previous 3 days that
had people upset, but overall I think it is fair and a lot of fun.  

  _____  

From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Bob Pastorello
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 7:23 PM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: Re: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

And I don't disagree with you in that respect.... you may be correct.  There
are a LOT more Masters' pilots who won't be finalists, ever, I guess.  So go
ahead, and change it to make it more elitist, more exclusive, more
discriminatory by design.  Have a ball with it.
    But - as others slightly more perceptive than I *know* - what happens at
the NATS can sometimes be used by people to press their agenda into the
"regular" events.
    IF you're proposing with Eric to add Unknowns to the NATS ONLY, then I
sure have no beef with that, as I likely would never, ever, have to be
concerned about running into it.  I honestly don't care what you do at the
NATS, as long as it doesn't impact the contests that the MAJORITY of pattern
fliers attend which are LOCAL events.
    Tweak away, with Grow Pattern in the lead!!!

Bob Pastorello
NSRCA 199  AMA 46373
rcaerobob at cox.net
www.rcaerobats.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Archie <mailto:rcpattern at comcast.net>  Stafford 
To: discussion at nsrca.org 
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:08 PM
Subject: RE: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

I think I'm partial to the unknowns because I've never really been overly
concerned with a caller.  Yes, I understand if I haven't flown a sequence
that it the caller is VERY important, but I'm not someone who has to hear
the maneuver 2/3 of the way through or anything like that.  At the NATS I
don't think it is a problem finding a "qualified" caller.  No one from my
home field goes to the NATS (actually that's incorrect, my father is a site
director and another pilot is a line chief, however these are both useless
to me at the NATS.  I think if the caller attended the announcement of the
"unknowns" with the pilots on Wednesday night as they do in FAI, then I
don't think it would be that big of a problem.  You have all evening plus
the next morning to go over the sequence and kind of see how things flow.
Even if it was as simple as changing the sequence of the maneuvers that are
in the pattern it would add to the level of difficulty.  I think a lot of
pilots even in Masters now would have a problem flying the sequence if you
flew the same sequence but made them roll the opposite direction they do
naturally.  Now, even flying the SAME sequence some pilots who might win
otherwise would have a major problem winning the contest.  Now who is the
better pilot, the pilot who flies the sequence well rolling either
direction, or the pilot that almost crashes his airplane because of rolling
the other direction?  I will admit naturally I roll better to the right than
I do the left, but if I was in the finals of masters and someone out flies
me because he can roll either way, he is the better pilot, and I think that
is the overall goal is to determine the best pilot, not who practices the
most.  I think the pilots who make the finals in Masters are competent
enough to be able to fly an unknown sequence and fly it well.

Arch

  _____  

From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Grow Pattern
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 7:00 PM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: Re: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

Archie,
             I am particularly interested in what you say because as a
person who actually attends the Nat's, you are therefore well positioned  to
have and entertain new ideas. As a person who makes it to the finals you are
both experiential and a potential who would fly this stuff. You are more
than just a theorist. How do other ex-finalist think?

The subject heading says unknowns not impossibles....The maneuvers would not
(be intended to) be more difficult. Just stringing them together would be
difficult to sort the finalists out...

Regards,

Eric.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Archie <mailto:rcpattern at comcast.net>  Stafford 
To: discussion at nsrca.org 
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:47 PM
Subject: RE: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

I think you can fly unknowns and also make them very precise and smooth.
Look at the FAI finals.  Other than the roller I think the sequence flowed
very well and the top pilots made it look like they had been flying it for a
long time.  Even if you used past sequences or rearranged the current
sequence.  

I do not think this makes it a "team" event with the caller.  Most pilots
have the callers they generally use and that person usually knows when the
person they are calling for likes to hear the next maneuver.  Also if you
use maneuvers that have been previously used or maneuvers that are
reasonably well known then you shouldn't have a judging problem.  If this is
going to be used at the NATS finals, then the judging is usually reasonably
good anyway.  I'm sure there will be varying opinions on that, but for the
most part judging in the finals is overall very good.  

The better pilots are going to make an unknown sequence look smooth and
precise no matter how many times they have flown it.  I think unknowns
definitely help you determine who the best pilot is.  

  _____  

From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Bob Pastorello
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:40 PM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: Re: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

I guess since I never take a position on anything, I should probably do so
on this -- so -- here 'tis.

1.  This is a genuine yes/no POLL question of the MASTERS pilots only....and
needs to be carefully administered, IF the Board is interested in opening
this one.
2.  If the POLL has at least 2/3 majority, then the next question should be
designed to find out how crazy we (Masters) pilots are about having our
scores judged by JUDGES WHO HAVE NEVER SEEN THE SEQUENCE  and 
3.  How crazy we are about the totally-impossible-to-fairly-administer
influence of the "team".  At this level of competitions (you guys are
talking about the NATS FINALS, for G---s sake!!!) I would be hard pressed to
say it will be "fair" to have the outcome determined by who had the best
caller (or the most effective team).  Not everyone can do that...  and
finally ....
4.  MASTERS is supposed to be the Top AMA class....as such, philosophically,
I think it should be the best - the VERY best - of precision, smoothness,
and gracefulness....

AND implementing an Unknown turns all that back into "IMPRESSION"
judging....

I'm not in favor of it;  won't be; won't try to persuade others to be; and
believe wholeheartedly that if a pilot is strongly committed to flying
Unknowns that he go play IMAC.  Then fly "Pattern" for precision, practiced,
smooth and skillfully-executed "routines".

Bob Pastorello
NSRCA 199  AMA 46373
rcaerobob at cox.net
www.rcaerobats.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Ed Deaver <mailto:divesplat at yahoo.com>  
To: discussion at nsrca.org 
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: AMA MASTER'S unknown?

Flying an Unknown truely does make it a 2 person flight.  I would still
welcome the opportunity as the challange and thrill(flying well or goofing
up and trying to collect yourself to fly the next manuever) is really great.

I don't know if it really identifies the callers ability, as much as the
teams ability.  Another thought depends on how much time is allowed to
prepare also.

ed

rcaerobob at cox.net wrote:
Before I'd answer whether I wanted one or not, I'd like to have an
understanding of what, specifically, the unknown in Masters would "reveal".
If pattern is about precision piloting that could be a different thing than
an ability to have a good caller....

Just my ignorant opinion.

Bob P.
> 
> From: "Grow Pattern" 
> Date: 2005/01/06 Thu AM 11:25:48 EST
> To: , 
> 
> Subject: AMA MASTER'S unknown?
> 
> How does this list feel about a Masters Nat's final that was different to 
> the regular schedule. OR, even an unknown in the final to make it more
than 
> just three more of the same flown in the heats.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Eric.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.f3a.us/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20050107/214ee83c/attachment.html