[SPAM] RE: Judging and FAI P-05 and F-05

Fri May 14 12:45:53 AKDT 2004

I can remember at the '97 Nats, the question came up about putting in 
heading correction for a spin performed in a crosswind.  I believe I 
recall Ron van Putte saying that you should approach the spin with 
enough crab to hold parallel with the runway, (increasing crab angle as 
the aircraft slows would be necessary) and then remove the yaw before 
entering the spin.  He then said upon recovery the yaw angle must be put 
back in so the airplane would parallel the flight line.
I don't recall if that was for  FAI only or all classes.  And, I'm not 
sure if a re-interpretation has been made.
As everyone is, I'm vitally interested in the final determination so 
satisfactory judging will result
Bill Glaze

Dean Pappas wrote:

>Hi Troy,
>The FAI Judges' Guide does not say that maintaining a crab angle is a downgrade. What it does say (see below) is that: 
>
>1) It starts with a horizontal line ... we must assume it is a wind corrected one.
>2) That after the point where the plane becomes near-stalled wind correction is done.
>
>Now, the only question is whether the same heading should be maintained (no changes in yaw) or whether the plane should be forcibly yawed back to parallel with the runway just before the break. The guide is unclear, but the long standing interpretation is to keep the pre-existing heading until after the break.
>
>Regards to All,
>	Dean
>
>
>All spins begin and end with horizontal lines. In order to spin, the model aircraft must be stalled. The entry is
>flown in a horizontal flight path with the nose-up attitude increasing as the speed decreases. Drift of the model
>aircraft from the flight path at this point should not be downgraded, since it is in a near-stalled condition.
>However, severe yawing is cause for downgrading. A climbing flight path just prior to the spin must be
>downgraded, using the 1-point/15 degree rule. The nose then drops as the model aircraft stalls. Simultaneously
>as the nose drops, the wing also drops in the direction of the spin. Drift during the rotation of the spin should
>not be downgraded since the model aircraft is in a stalled condition, provided the model aircraft does not drift
>outside the aerobatic zone.
>If the model aircraft does not stall or if the model aircraft is snap-rolled into the spin, the manoeuvre is zeroed.
>If the model aircraft slides into the spin (is loathe to spin), the manoeuvre must be downgraded by using the
>1/point per 15 degree rule. Forcing the model aircraft to spin in the opposite direction as the initial rotation
>must be severely downgraded.
>After the defined number of turns, the stop of rotation is judged in the same manner as for a roll, i.e. one point
>downgrade for each 15 degree deviation of heading.
>A vertical downward line of visible length must be held after the rotation stops. The pull- or push-out is judged
>like a part-loop and if followed by a part-roll, should be separated by a well-defined segment of straight flight.
>Remember that different models spin in different attitudes, and that the attitude is not to be taken into
>consideration, as long as the model aircraft is stalled. Any reversals in direction must be immediate, and if the
>model aircraft returns to an unstalled condition during the spin, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Troy Newman [mailto:troy_newman at msn.com]
>Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 3:53 PM
>To: discussion at nsrca.org
>Subject: RE: Judging and FAI P-05 and F-05
>
>
>My comment was that we in the USA are judging the spin that model is crabbed 
>into the wind.
>
>The TEAM Selection last year, NATS last year and so on the pilots were told 
>that the crab was OK. The
>
>AMA rules indicate the model must maitain the crab angle and not drift until 
>the stall occurs.  BUT The FAI rules tell us..... as the model slows and 
>before it stalls the maintaning of the crab angle becomes determental to the 
>geometry of the manuever. Since the model is in a near stalled condition it 
>the wind drift is OK! Its the crabbing into the wind that makes the spins 
>look funny and often sometimes hard to judge...This is extreme conditions. 
>Now I would also acknowledge that drifting out to 300meters makes it tough 
>to judge too!
>
>
>So the model fuse basically stays square (parralell in this case) to the 
>flight line all the time...as the model approaches the stall break in the 
>spin.
>
>I'm not pushing for one over the other in terms of what is correct. I am 
>pushing that FAI needs to be judged on a standard at least equal to if not 
>better than it is everywhere else in the world. The rules are what they are 
>and input beyond that is not fair to the pilot expected to fly it.
>
>
>These power point documents were actually produced by Bob Skinner the 
>chairman of the CIAM committee for F3A. He is from South Africa I believe.
>
>They were posted on the British site. Bob also made similar documents for 
>the 2003 sequences.
>
>Troy
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>>From: Marty King <mking46516 at yahoo.com>
>>Reply-To: discussion at nsrca.org
>>To: discussion at nsrca.org
>>Subject: RE: Judging and FAI P-05 and F-05
>>Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 09:24:29 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>Troy,
>>
>>When you say differences is this not what all FAI judges world wide are 
>>using? Or are you refering to how FAI and our current AMA rules differ? Or 
>>are the Brits feeding us wrong information?
>>
>>Marty King
>>NSRCA 2551
>>
>>Troy Newman <troy_newman at msn.com> wrote:
>>notice that in FAI spin entry is judging is not crabbed into the
>>wind...Model Remain parallel.
>>
>>Also that there are some other differences like roll rates need not be
>>constant in manuevers with varibale roll combos where there is only one 
>>type
>>of a certain segment...example 4/8pt-slow roll oposite....but in a 3/4 slow
>>rolls in opposite they need to be the same.
>>
>>Also the sq loop with 1/2's up and dn and 2/4's on top and btm...the 1/2's
>>match and the 2/4's match.
>>
>>Just a couple little nuggets...there are lots of little differences.
>>
>>TN
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>>From: Marty King
>>>Reply-To: discussion at nsrca.org
>>>To: discussion at nsrca.org
>>>Subject: Judging and FAI P-05 and F-05
>>>Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 07:45:18 -0700 (PDT)
>>>
>>>I found this on the RC Canada board. These are power point presentations 
>>>      
>>>
>>on
>>    
>>
>>>Judging and the maneuvers for FAI. I found them very informative and a 
>>>      
>>>
>>good
>>    
>>
>>>refresher. Those of you holding judging schools may want to review or use
>>>these. They were created by the Great Britain Aerobatic Association. They
>>>can be copied and saved to you local PC or laptop. You may need the
>>>additional fonts that are listed. My XP box didn't.
>>>
>>>http://members.shaw.ca/teamcanadaf3a/powerpoint/judgepres.ppt
>>>
>>>http://members.shaw.ca/teamcanadaf3a/powerpoint/FAIpres.ppt
>>>
>>>http://members.shaw.ca/teamcanadaf3a/powerpoint/fonts.zip
>>>
>>>I hope you take the time to view these,
>>>
>>>Marty King
>>>NSRCA 2551
>>>D-4
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------
>>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>>Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2'
>>>      
>>>
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>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2'
>>    
>>
>
>
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