8411 conversion to SA

[Bill Glaze]

Troy: I don't think you're crazy if you say you did it.  If you say so, 
that's it.  Having said that, I sure wish I had access to the same trim 
expert you did. ;-)
I remember Tony Frack saying "not 10% of the flyers out there know how 
to trim an airplane."  I'm pretty sure I'm in the 90% compared with the 
top flyers.  And some of them probably are working harder than they need 
to, because of trim problems.  Problem is, if you go a long time, you 
automatically compensate, and probably never know you have a problem, 
until a "really, really good flyer" flies your plane, and says "What the 
heck is going on with this thing?  Do you REALLY fly it like this, or 
are you just kidding me?<G>
Anyway, I thank you for the information, as always.

Bill Glaze
P.S. I really enjoyed watching your flying at Muncie.  Top drawer.


Troy Newman wrote:

> Vicente,
>  
> I can feel when the servo gears are worn and also when the pots are 
> worn. I'm not the natural pilot that some of the guys are....I work 
> very hard at it. I become very "in Tune" with my model and I can tell 
> when something changes.  Yes Digital servos will compensate for worn 
> pots better than analog servos because of the way they find center. 
> Same thing with worn or sloppy gear trains. I said compensate 
> better...but the problem still remains. In a really good setup I 
> believe anyone can feel it.
>  
> Where I find the biggest problem in my flying with worn pots or gears 
> in in loop tracking. I learned a little last year from an expert in 
> pattern model trimming. I found that my models while they flew well 
> didn't loop track for beans. I had a model that once we got done with 
> it.....I could set the power at about 1/3 and pull or push tight I 
> mean tight square corners....As in pull the wings off it square 
> corners for about 3-5mins without ever touching the ailerons, rudder 
> or throttle....and the model without any wind would stay in the exact 
> same spot! I thought we were going to pull the wings off it....
>  
> You may think I'm crazy and that it is not possible but we did it. 
> Since then I have repeated the same thing with about 4 other models. 
> If the wings were level the model would pull the corner perfectly 
> straight every time.  When the servos especially on the ailerons get 
> worn you CAN"T do this type of thing. In a corner the ailerons are 
> forced by flight loads and they are required to hold their position. A 
> weak servo will blow back, and a servo with sloppy or worn gears will 
> move some amount before the servo begins to hold its position. In this 
> scenario you are getting a "flapperon" effect. Inside corner will 
> result in the ailerons raising slightly before the servo pushes back 
> and holds the position. The ideal situation for the air foil and the 
> model is to not have the ailerons move at all....but in reality things 
> are flexing and twisting all the time.
>  
> So you say well the slop is the same in both servos so they flex the 
> same amount......is it really the exact same slop on both sides? How 
> can you tell its the same? Any difference in the two sides will change 
> the shape the of the wing and cause more lift on one side vs. the 
> other.....When this happens you can't pull or push a straight corner. 
> The reason is one side will make more lift than the other.
>  
> Next problem with sloppy gears in turbulence....If the gear trains are 
> loose in turbulence the model will not lock on. The pilot may say man 
> it bumpy up there....In reality the model will sit still better if the 
> ailerons are not allowed to move that 1/8th to 1/4 degree. I proven it 
> with my models.
>  
> I hear from pilots all the time that "I'm not good enough to feel that 
> little difference" My answer to them is your model is not setup well 
> enough to allow you to feel it. I'm not saying that your setup is not 
> good...I'm just saying if you can't feel the difference in new vs. 
> sloppy gear trains your set needs to be better than it is.
>  
> In the last 2 years I really have been a student of  how bad my model 
> setups were, and how much better they can get. As a result my quality 
> of flying has gotten better and better in the last couple years. It 
> still needs to be better to reach the goals I have set for myself. 
> However without properly trimmed models I would never had achieved the 
> small amount of success in the last 2 years that I have.
>  
> Trimming is a thing that is only as good as your level of expectation. 
> Once you feel one that it is correctly setup and trimmed all lesser 
> setups will feel poor to you. If you have never tasted a Filet Minot 
> then you might think that Burger King has the best Beef around. This 
> is not being stuck up or arrogant...Its a fact. Grab up the average 
> sport fliers Tiger 2....and you will be able to tell the linkage is 
> sloppy or the servos are weak....or the thrustline is off. The reason 
> is you know in your head it can be better than it is. Same thing with 
> pattern models. Until you fly a really well trimmed model you have no 
> idea of how much better it can be. Many take the "That's about Right" 
> approach and are sadly happy with the result they got. As your 
> knowledge grows so does your expectations.
>  
> In the past couple years I have been lucky enough to fly lots of 
> models. Both in helping other pilots trim their models, and my own 
> models. I can say this almost any design out there can do the 
> sequences, and any design out there can be setup to fly them very 
> well. Attention to detail, and the knowledge that the model can get 
> better is a start. Then the expectation the models needs to be better 
> than it is will drive you to excellence.
>  
> If your setup can't tell the difference between a new tight servo and 
> a sloppy one.... then let us work on your setup so you can "Feel the 
> Difference." The difference is there but other issues and problems in 
> a setup will mask it. We spent lots of money on precision digital 
> servos, stiff CF pushrods, slop free ball bear clevis links, Laser 
> pointers to set control throws to 1/10th of a degree and yet many 
> don't pay attention to the basics of the model setup. We pay lots of 
> money for precision equipment like 1024PCM that has resolution like 
> nothing we have seen in the model industry since the beginning and 
> then we set our Dual rates at 50% travel and only use 1/2 of the 
> electronic resolution of the TX, and servo.
>  
> Back in the old days before I was even flying pattern, the radios 
> didn't allow for a quick fix of this or that, and the pilots had to be 
> good with the sticks or had to know how to make the model setup 
> correct. I'm not saying that I wish the old days were here...but Trim 
> work is an art form. There are very few artists left...Most pattern 
> pilots think the model is trimmed if it doesn't have any coupling with 
> rudder. Well there is a ton more to model setup and trim than just 
> setting up a  Prog Mix that gives X% elevator when the rudder is 
> deflected.
>  
> Please don't anyone take offense when I say the above.....I'm not 
> telling you your skills at model setup are for crap....I'm just 
> telling you that your model can be better than it is. To me this was 
> an eye opening experience and I really started to feel the differences.
>  
> The best advice I can give to someone that is struggling with pattern 
> or with flying a certain maneuver is make you model fly better and the 
> work load on you the pilot will be much less. WHEN the model is doing 
> the work...the rest becomes much easier. Our models are tools to do 
> the job. We expect laser type precision at times, and yet some guys 
> show up with a chainsaw. Yes both will cut the thing that needs 
> cut....its just a matter of the end results.
>  
> TN

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