Pl Lazulite-really cost of pattern kits

[Koenig, Tom]

This is so true Gray, well said.
 
If I may also add there is probably another aspect that you guys are perhaps
not seeing. PL being French, and not being all that far from Paris are
located near one of the most expensive places in the world. These guys have
what I would imagine some serious labour costs. ZN being in Belgium? I would
say, would fare not much better in that department either. Lets face it
Europe is an expensive place, higher labour costs, higher cost of living
etc.
 
Now add to the fact that the US Dollar is no longer # 1, you guys are
probably experiencing for the first time in a very long time, what the rest
of us have had to live with for 20 odd years. The fact that your Dollar does
not have the purchasing power it used to have. So quite logically, the
market 'decides' and you start looking domestically for the products you
wish for.
Australians are generally very resourceful due to the fact that our dollar
has been in the toilet for near on 20 years, but modelling has always been
expensive. Now in my case......I paid for my PL's some 6-9 months ago, and
ofcourse for the first time in 20 years our dollar has gained near on 25% on
just about every currency,  just  in the recent few months. So I lost again
!!!!! No one's fault, just the way the cookie crumbles I guess, but make no
mistakes, financially it hurts and I question my decision virtually every
day.....particularly since I've been flying my own designs for so long.
 
So guys, I guess you fellas in the States will simply have to get used to
the fact that your dollar does not have the purchasing power it used to have
for items which you import. Luckily you have such a huge domestic market
that someone may fill the 'gap', should one appear. I do however think that
both ZN and PL do a terrific job, simply in making these things available to
those that want them.
 
I also wish to add to Troy's comments. I too have experience with both
manufacturers and I'm not sure its a clear cut thing that one offers a
better kit than the other. What one lacks the other makes up for. I could
get specific, but I'm not sure it would be 'called for' with this reply.
I guess what it all boils down to is...if you want a kit ( from any
manufacturer for that matter) pick one and pay for it and don't try to
analyse it, get on with it. Then decide what follows........
 
If you really cant find what you want, then design your own and build the
thing......put the 'modelling' back into modelling. I've seen so many skills
just simply vanish in the last 5 years it ain't funny! 
 
Or buy that ARF that some poor fella  slaved over for a week for the
equivalent wages of a bowl of rice.  At least Mr Zn and PL are eating a
decent meal........ Gray may just have moved up to baked beans and toast
<VBG> and he truly is happy he's got a proper job to pay for the bread!
 
Pick your poison and live with it.
 
Tom ( in the bunker!)

-----Original Message-----
From: Gray E Fowler [mailto:gfowler at raytheon.com]
Sent: Saturday, 10 January 2004 2:35 AM
To: discussion at nsrca.org
Subject: Re: Pl Lazulite-really cost of pattern kits



Why are these kits so expensive? As a manufacturer of pattern kits I can
offer some insight. Not long ago,1999 I paid $425 for a Prophecy kit. This
kit was a wet layup, a couple of layers of fiberglass, and chin cover and
belly cover of the same contruction, and the needed foam pieces for for
wings/stab. Great plane good value. Now look at the construction of the kits
everyone is getting now. Vacuum bagged  "A" sandwich fuses needing no
additional formers, twice the area size of the older kit at about the same
weight, primed-painted in the mold, preskinned wings and stab, carbon fiber,
kevelar reinforcements. 
What this means is these kits require about twice the labor of the older
kits, and for materials....I buy 1 square yard of fiberglass (like the old
kits were made from) for $4-5/yd. The carbon fiber used on the CF-Aries and
the up coming Symphony costs $75/yd-no kidding. 
In addition, to these costs, to make these complex planes better and more
accurrate, the use of 3-D CAD is really a necessity. You can do it by hand
for hundreds and hundreds of hours or you can do it on the computer for
thousands and thousands (and thousands) of dollars. Everyone wants
preskinned wings and ARFS because they do not have time to build....same
with us, so we opted for the 3-D CAD, and I assume so does Pl and ZN. 
If you want to see what I mean by the 3D CAD go to the Aeroslave web site
and click on the Symphony. 3-D CAD is great, but very expensive, and that
has to be passed on to the consumer. 
Pl and ZN have alot of secondary cost issues because they are imported.
Remove all that and you have about an $800-1200 kit, that is much more
complex and has extras never offered on the $425 kit. 
As you can see, I still work a real job, manufacturing composite missiles
and bombs (and loving it) for the pointed delivery to the bad guys, because
I would starve on pattern planes alone. Most pattern suppliers are like
Aeroslave...doing it because we thought it would be fun-it sure aint for the
money....even with the expensive kits. 

In opinionated summary...I think todays kits are a better value than
yestedays kits.



Gray Fowler
Principal Chemical Engineer
Composites Engineering



************************************************************************
*PLEASE NOTE*  This email and any attachments may
be confidential. If received in error, please delete all 
copies and advise the sender. The reproduction or 
dissemination of this email or its attachments is 
prohibited without the consent of the sender.

WARNING RE VIRUSES:  Our computer systems sweep
outgoing email to guard against viruses, but no warranty 
is given that this email or its attachments are virus free. 
Before opening or using attachments, please check for 
viruses.  Our liability is limited to the re-supply of any 
affected attachments.

Any views expressed in this message are those of the 
individual sender, except where the sender expressly,
and with authority, states them to be the views of the 
organisation.
************************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.f3a.us/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20040112/2ecb717b/attachment.html