Snap Rolls.....are they legitimate/ RE: displacement during snap rolls discussion

Fri Dec 31 05:46:37 AKST 2004

Arch:

You have very good points.  The big issue is to everyone to judge these maneuvers the same.

The fact is, that we as judges many times do not take the job very seriously.  A big example of that is distance.  It is written is stone in the rule book how this is judged, but we keep seen pilots flying at 200+ meters out with little or no downgrade!  I see this at EVERY CONTEST I GO TO!  A pilot that flies that far out should not expect to see above a 5 on his score sheet anywhere, but most judges will not down-grade it at all, or maybe by only a point.  They will strain their eyes to see if they can detect wing angles to determine the 1 point per 15 degree downgrade!  

If we can't get judges to do this very simple task, how can we expect them to work at looking for the correct criteria for a snap?  What is the correct criteria, you ask?  IT IS WHATEVER IS WRITTEN IN THE RULE BOOK, PERIOD.  I may not agree with it, but that is what is written and I MUST follow it as a judge.  I don't have to follow it as a pilot (which means my scores will be low...), but I DO have to follow it as a judge.  In order to fix this problem, we have to get rules changed to address them.  

NSRCA has done a tremendous job over the last 10 years to bring about much needed change in our competition rules, but this is a never-ending task!  As new maneuvers come out, we find "grey-areas" that need to be defined so that we are all on the same page.  

This snap discussion is a WONDERFUL thing!  It brings out ideas and opinions so they can be discussed and when we all work toward a common goal like this, THINGS GET DONE!  

I commend everyone that has taken the time to put in their ideas!  This continues to prove to me that the NSRCA has the best bunch of modelers out there!!!

Tony Stillman
Radio South
3702 N. Pace Blvd.
Pensacola, FL 32505
1-800-962-7802
www.radiosouthrc.com
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bill Glaze 
  To: discussion at nsrca.org 
  Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 8:31 AM
  Subject: Re: Snap Rolls.....are they legitimate/ RE: displacement during snap rolls discussion

  Archie: I can pretty much guarantee that, if you keep ramping up the difficulty, it will be necessary to make, at some point, the step up more reasonable.  To do so it will become necessary to add an additional class, then re-align the existing classes.  Been done  before, both in and out of model flying.  Just my idea.
  Bill Glaze

  Archie Stafford wrote: 

    I do not necessarily think they should be setup to prepare someone for FAI, however I do think they need to progress and become more difficult every rule change cycle, more Advanced and Masters than Sportsman and Intermediate.  I do think the schedules are more complicated, but I remember reading a few years ago in the K-Factor, I believe it was Frank Granelli, forgive me if I am wrong about how today's Advanced pilot fly many of the same maneuvers that were frown on a world stage in the late 70's and early 80's.  

    I do believe Sportsman should remain very basic that any capable sport airplane should be able to fly the maneuvers and fly them well, and the same for intermediate.  I think the only maneuvers that sport planes have a problem with in those classes are the vertical maneuvers from a pure lack of power.  There are not many 40 sized designs with a good .46 on the front that can do point rolls on an upline, I'm sure there are exceptions, but for the most part your average .40 sized Extra with a .46 is going to run out of energy near the top of any extended vertical climb.

    I think most of the people in the upper classes enjoy the challenge.  And even the new maneuvers are not really that new, they are just a modification of something that has been done in the past.  The new Avalanche in masters is a perfect example. It is not that much more difficult than a standard avalanche, yes it takes some more practice and changes in how you perform the snap, but the fact that it happens at the bottom of the loop instead of the top makes a big difference.  

    A few years ago at the nats, the first year in masters with the 1 ½ snap down, most of the pilots had major problems with this maneuver, but 3 years later after flying it and practicing it more and understanding how to perform the maneuvers most of the people I saw flying Masters this year at the NATS, no matter where they finished were reasonably comfortable with this maneuver and most of the ones that did have problems were flying it correctly, but looked more like the plane wasn't setup correctly, using too much rudder, or aileron or whatever, but the pilots were comfortable with the maneuver.  

    I believe the first two classes should definitely be reasonable for a good sport airplane to fly the sequences, then a somewhat larger jump to Advanced, because lets be honest.  With the number of reasonable priced 2M designs out today, if someone sticks with it until Advanced then they are probably going to purchase a true "pattern" plane.  Even if it is a 2 year old RTF plane from another pilot who has purchased a new airplane.    

    I do not think that Masters should prepare someone for FAI specifically, but it should definitely be the hardest class of AMA pattern.  Most of what we do will always follow what FAI does.  It only makes sense for the AMA pattern rules to follow what FAI does in terms of aircraft and powerplants allowed.  This does not mean that we have to follow exactly what they do for maneuver choice.  I think even snap rolls can be flown and flown well consistently, just like spins, the problem we have now is no one knows what everyone is looking for.  Some judges want to see more break than others, some want them slower, when neither of these is a true criteria. The key is to make sure everyone looks for the same things and pilots know exactly how to perform the maneuvers. If it is written that you must show a 15 degree break, then put it in there for the pilots to know what to fly.  They can be flown anyway that we want to fly them, but the key is to make sure everyone is looking to fly them the same way.  Even if it means at the NATS or some judging seminar having someone fly a snap roll and then saying "OK, this is a snap, whether judge A thinks so or not, this is what we are calling a snap roll, you may not agree with it, but by definition, this is what we are saying is a snap roll."  To eventually get everyone on the same page as to what to look for.

    Arch

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Bob Pastorello
    Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 11:26 AM
    To: discussion at nsrca.org
    Subject: Re: Snap Rolls.....are they legitimate/ RE: displacement during snap rolls discussion

    Dave, as always, thoughtful input....thanks!

        I, for one, (and perhaps the ONLY one) would like to know pure and simple from the majority of folks playing AMA pattern....a yes or a no to this question...

        "Should the progression of classes within AMA precision aerobatics be designed to prepare a person for the FAI class?"

    I would like to have this question put to all pattern fliers, and let the answer shape the design of our sequences.  Period.

        (I know this is a good example of " be careful what you ask for ", but has it ever been asked??)

    Bob Pastorello
    NSRCA 199  AMA 46373
    rcaerobob at cox.net
    www.rcaerobats.net

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