Snap Rolls.....are they legitimate/ RE: displacement during
snap rolls discussion
Bill Glaze
billglaze at triad.rr.com
Thu Dec 30 06:11:58 AKST 2004
Bob:
I remember being told that a good pattern maneuver is "hard to do, easy
to judge." While I, too, enjoy doing snaps, this discussion has made me
wonder if there is any place for them in pattern. And, I am beginning
to backpedal (because I admittedly like them) and am wondering if there
is any place for them at all except in, possibly, FAI. And even there,
the only reason for them would be the mandate by the international
body. Inasmuch as I have no control over this issue, I'm just musing.
Bill Glaze
Bob Pastorello wrote:
> That is an excellent point, Chris. And your modesty to not add
> "Intermediate National Champion" to your credentials is noted.
> The issue of a virtually-uncontrollable maneuver EXCEPT for entry
> and exit, does bring a valid question about it's place in our game. I
> think Ed Miller mentioned (sorry if wrong) that longer-duration
> maneuvers with more easily-visible segments have their OWN level of
> difficulty.
> In '99, when I was working on the Rules Committee, and we were
> designing new sequences one of the suggestions in Masters was a Center
> maneuver, a square loop with 2/4 on U/D, 1/2 on horizontal legs. We
> were TRASHED for even suggesting such a thing!!!
> The reason I mention that is to consider difficulty and pilot
> challenge, wouldn't most of us agree that the square loop I describe
> would be more easily judged, and more challenging for the majority of
> pilots than the downline SINGLE snap we have in '05 ???
>
> Since we're in a rules cycle year, maybe this is a good time to
> rethink the "required elements" of every class, and look more for
> "what do guys WANT to have in the sequence?"
>
> Great thread starter, Chris.
>
> Bob Pastorello
> NSRCA 199 AMA 46373
> rcaerobob at cox.net <mailto:rcaerobob at cox.net>
> www.rcaerobats.net <http://www.rcaerobats.net>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: White, Chris <mailto:chris at ssd.fsi.com>
> To: discussion at nsrca.org <mailto:discussion at nsrca.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 8:49 AM
> Subject: Snap Rolls.....are they legitimate/ RE: displacement
> during snap rolls discussion
>
>
> Please excuse me if I'm repeating, or committing a "faux pas" ( I
> think I spelled that right:) ) ....but I am really interested in
> hearing opinions to the following:
>
> 1) Do snap rolls add or detract from the legitimacy of judging
> precision aerobatic pilots capabilities?
> 2) Do snap rolls add to the credibility of precision aerobatics?
>
> I'm new to the game, but a "stalled" maneuver is a maneuver that
> is not "flown on the wing" . An overwhelming percentage of the
> other maneuver segments in our patterns are flown on the wing and
> are able to be judged accurately and with a minimum of
> "impression" influence. Since the Snap Roll it is not "flown"
> through it is not fully controlled....lack of control indicates
> somewhat of a wildcard that penalizes capable pilots experiencing
> a "bad" maneuver.
>
> I have seen many good snap rolls in competition, some done by
> great pilots, some by new guys.....my question is: Should there be
> a "wild card" allowance? Is anyone capable of flying consistent
> snap rolls that are consistently judgeable to clear and concise
> requirements? I believe I'm hearing an overwhelming "NO". If
> the answer is no, then maybe they should be removed.
>
> I fly RC pattern because in my opinion it is more graceful and
> precise in appearance as compared to IMAC.... not that I don't
> respect IMAC pilots capabilities and enjoy the show. But, I
> sometimes I wonder how "Snap Rolls" fit into RC Pattern....and it
> sounds as if I'm not the only one. (I like to see snaps....I
> just feel there are variables beyond the pilots control which
> penalize inconsistently) I think a pilot should be judged on
> control....not inertial physics. (is that a real term????:) )
>
> Just my thoughts and question to the group....respectfully submitted,
> Chris
>
> (as a CFII, airshow nut and pattern guy and whatever other
> credibility I can throw in:) )
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
> [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ed Miller
> Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 7:11 PM
> To: discussion at nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so
> quiet?)
>
> Seems the never ending snap discussion was beat to death here
> last year too. This will be long but hear me out. No doubt
> what I'm about to say will at the very least be controversial.
> That's fine with me as I think we need to think outside the
> box more often. My wife enjoys watching figure skating. Being
> the "supportive spouse", on occasion I will watch for a bit
> with her. It seems in figure skating, the multiple rotation
> jumps, triples and even quadruple rotation variations is where
> all the judging ( and viewing ) emphasis is placed in a
> skaters routine. It also seems the judging is focused on 2
> things, the entry to the jump and "sticking" the landing.
> Frankly, those that say they can see every element of the
> skaters rotation are, IMHO, full of blank. It plain happens
> too fast. I have better eyesight than most, in my younger days
> I could pick up the stitching and rotation of a baseball
> thrown at 90mph. I'll admit, some of that sharpness is gone
> but, I honestly cannot pick up all the rotation elements in a
> figure skaters jump in real time ( we all can when they replay
> it in slow-mo ). Ever since the snap roll was introduced into
> precision aerobatics, an oxymoron IMHO, we have had the same
> problems judging snaps as professional figure skating judges
> have judging triple toe loops. I have watched ( and learned
> some ) from the real snap masters, aka Lockhart and Pappas,
> yet, when in the judges chair I look for departure in pitch (
> entry ) and "the landing " of the maneuver ( exit ) . So, to
> me, we've introduced snaps into precision aerobatics to
> separate the wanna be pattern jockey hackers like me from the
> gifted, talented folks like Lockhart, Pappas, Hyde, etc. but
> in fact what we've done is actually dumbed down our judging
> criteria. These talented flyers will find the setup and stick
> movements to present a maneuver such that it defies the laws
> of gravity. However, most of us are only humans and as judges,
> only judge what can we realistically see and honestly assess
> in a snap roll. Most all snap rolls I've seen done and
> performed rotate at such a speed that again, the exit is the
> focus. Once in awhile you can pick up the obvious aileron roll
> exit. There are many more elements of a snap roll besides
> entry and exit yet as I read/delete/read/delete, etc. the
> discussion we are having here, it boils down to entry and exit
> positions. The ex-masters maneuver of 2 rolls in opposite
> directions. It is a thing of beauty when done properly takes
> a lot of time to perform, especially compared to our beloved
> snap rolls, has many more places for the pilot to screw up
> that are EASILY VISIBLE to the judges besides the entry and
> exit points. That's precision aerobatics IMHO. AMA pattern was
> always smooth and graceful until someone decided as the FAI
> does, so must the AMA. Some will say it's progress, new
> maneuvers, it's just raising the bar to let the cream rise to
> the top. I'm on the side that the bar has sunk into the cream.
> Maybe the some of the lost NSRCA members felt similarly.
> Ed M.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Doug Cronkhite <mailto:seefo at san.rr.com>
> To: discussion at nsrca.org <mailto:discussion at nsrca.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:33 PM
> Subject: RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it
> so quiet?)
>
> The rules for family 9.9 are as follows:
>
> "Snap rolls represent one of the greatest challenges to
> judge. This is primarily due to two factors: (1) the
> "snapping" characteristics of different types of aircraft
> are unique; and (2), snap rolls are a high energy maneuver
> that occur very quickly. Snaps happen so fast, in fact,
> that is is virtually impossible for a judge to determine
> the exact order in which events occur, especially at the
> beginning of the snap. There are no criteria, therefore,
> for seeing nose and wing movement initiated at the same
> time as with the other autorotation family, Spins."
>
> The rest of the paragraphs deal with snaps not
> autorotating through the complete revolutions and so forth
> but there is no criteria whatsoever for line displacement.
> This would be impossible to deal with actually since
> aircraft snap so differently from one type to another. A
> top level unlimited airplane like an Edge, Cap, or Sukhoi
> displaces very little, but people flying lower classes in
> Decathlons, Clipped Wing Cubs and so forth displace a
> great deal in a snap. There's just no way to fairly judge
> with a single standard across all aircraft types.
>
> -Doug
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
> [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> Dean Pappas
> Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:15 PM
> To: discussion at nsrca.org
> Subject: RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why
> is it so quiet?)
>
> Thanks Doug,
> You don't happen to have the piece of text in a form
> that could be pasted into this forum, do ya'?
>
>
> Dean Pappas
> Sr. Design Engineer
> Kodeos Communications
> 111 Corporate Blvd.
> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
> (908) 222-7817 phone
> (908) 222-2392 fax
> d.pappas at kodeos.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: discussion-request at nsrca.org
> [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On Behalf Of
> Doug Cronkhite
> Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:14 PM
> To: discussion at nsrca.org
> Subject: RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was
> Why is it so quiet?)
>
> No track downgrade Dean. Since a snap roll is a
> yaw induced maneuver (or should be at least) it's
> nigh-impossible to actually snap the airplane and
> not displace the line a little. Especially when
> you consider the low weight and inertia of our
> airplanes as compared to full scale.
>
> -Doug
>
>
>
>
>
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