snap displacement

[Lance Van Nostrand]

I agree with you, Keith.  Sometimes we all act like we're artists and other times we act like engineers.  There is not one definitive and precise description that will work.  Therefore we should widen our tolerance to allow some differences with no downgrade.  Snaps look slightly different in different attitudes (upline, downline, in a loop) so any working definition must account for this.  As honest as pattern planes are, there are differences in how planes snap due to design differences (wing area, tail moment, etc.).  I believe that there must be some allowance for differences before we start downgrading.  Those that want to reward the guy who translated 1/4 wingspan over the person that translated 1/2 wingspan are applying their judging powers unfairly, in my opinion.  Yes, one may look a bit better, but that doesn't necessarily mean he should be rewarded.  Now if both pilots flew the same plane in the same wind, then we could compare, but since we can't we shouldn't.  There are plenty of judge-able criteria that fit the objective manuver description to provide opportunity for downgrades: track change, exit heading, amount of rotation, was there a break, tail cone, autorotation for the full rotation, etc.
   As for the guy with the switch: a switch does not obey your normal throws or expo.  As Earl said before, getting the surfaces to move very quickly to the needed (larger) deflection points can sometimes overcome the sequencing need.
--Lance

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Keith Black 
  To: discussion at nsrca.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 6:37 PM
  Subject: Re: snap displacement


  After this same discussion was held prior to last season I started watching snaps more closely and trying to see the initial break. I also experimented with my own snaps and hitting elevator first. Doing this is not easy and really makes it difficult to make the snap pretty, but hey, that's the challenge right?

  Then I saw someone whose snaps looked really good to me (name will go unmentioned). So I looked closer... was there a break from elevator first? Uh, hard to tell, it happens so quickly, but definitely not axial, and definitely not a barrel roll and slight offset. Looked like a pretty good snap to me. After the snap the heading remained the same, but offset. I couldn't see much to downgrade for and it sure as HECK wasn't a zero...

  Now the interesting thing. I spoke to the pilot and found out that he was using a snap switch!  But wait, all the gurus on the mailing list say you have to input elevator first... Should I now change my opinion of his snaps because I know what controls he's using?

  Maybe the initial break is being over-emphasized, maybe not. At some point in time someone tried to put into words the physical action of a snap, not easy to do, and now we're dissecting their choice of words to decide the "definitive" snap. Who's to say that the author of the description described the snap well? One slight seemingly minor verb change could completely change the way we interpret a snap. What came first, the snap or the description? It's kind of funny that most people participating in this discussion would question any and everything any and everyone else may "say", but if it's written down it's the gospel. 

  What's my point? Just sharing my thoughts.

  Keith Black

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Bob Pastorello 
    To: NSRCA 
    Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 5:11 PM
    Subject: Re: snap displacement


    Tony, I think you've just made a case for "impresion judging", using the rule-book downgrades to make the "big" differences, then the "impression" (you may use the word "presentation" [same thing]) makes the balance of the points.

    Or am I missing something about how we should apply "presentation" to this particular maneuver?

    Bob Pastorello
    NSRCA 199  AMA 46373
    rcaerobob at cox.net
    www.rcaerobats.net


      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: tony at radiosouthrc.com 
      To: discussion at nsrca.org 
      Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:27 PM
      Subject: Re: snap displacement


      Keith:

      Yes, you are correct about the "degree" downgrade.  I also agree that the pilot that does the "most clean looking snap" will get the better score, no matter what you use as a downgrade base.

      Tony Stillman
      Radio South
      3702 N. Pace Blvd.
      Pensacola, FL 32505
      1-800-962-7802
      www.radiosouthrc.com
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Keith Black 
        To: discussion at nsrca.org 
        Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 10:52 AM
        Subject: Re: snap displacement


        Tony, you can't measure displacement in degrees. Heading would be measured in degrees, but displacement would be measured in inches or feet.

        The list has had this conversation before and the conclusion was that there should be no downgrade for displacement as long as the heading/track remains the same. That being said, I would think that if someone does a snap that jumps way over and another pilot does one that clearly snaps but displaces less that the second pilot should be rewarded for a more clean looking snap.

        Keith
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          From: tony at radiosouthrc.com 
          To: Discussion at Nsrca.Org 
          Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 8:41 AM
          Subject: snap displacement


          I have seen many full-scale pilots do snaps without any noticeable displacement.  I have also seen these same pilots do poor ones that did displace.  I think you must downgrade it some (1 point per 15 deg).

          Tony Stillman
          Radio South
          3702 N. Pace Blvd.
          Pensacola, FL 32505
          1-800-962-7802
          www.radiosouthrc.com
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