Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)

[Ed Miller]

Seems the never ending snap discussion was beat to death here last year too. This will be long but hear me out. No doubt what I'm about to say will at the very least be controversial. That's fine with me as I think we need to think outside the box more often. My wife enjoys watching figure skating. Being the "supportive spouse", on occasion I will watch for a bit with her. It seems in figure skating, the multiple rotation jumps, triples and even quadruple rotation variations is where all the judging ( and viewing ) emphasis is placed in a skaters routine. It also seems the judging is focused on 2 things, the entry to the jump and "sticking" the landing. Frankly, those that say they can see every element of the skaters rotation are, IMHO, full of blank. It plain happens too fast. I have better eyesight than most, in my younger days I could pick up the stitching and rotation of a baseball thrown at 90mph. I'll admit, some of that sharpness is gone but, I honestly cannot pick up all the rotation elements in a figure skaters jump in real time ( we all can when they replay it in slow-mo ). Ever since the snap roll was introduced into precision aerobatics, an oxymoron IMHO, we have had the same problems judging snaps as professional figure skating judges have judging triple toe loops. I have watched ( and learned some ) from the real snap masters, aka Lockhart and Pappas, yet, when in the judges chair I look for departure in pitch ( entry ) and "the landing " of the maneuver ( exit ) . So, to me, we've introduced snaps into precision aerobatics to separate the wanna be pattern jockey hackers like me from the gifted, talented folks like Lockhart, Pappas, Hyde, etc. but in fact what we've done is actually dumbed down our judging criteria. These talented flyers will find the setup and stick movements to present a maneuver such that it defies the laws of gravity. However, most of us are only humans and as judges, only judge what can we realistically see and honestly assess in a snap roll. Most all snap rolls I've seen done and performed rotate at such a speed that again, the exit is the focus. Once in awhile you can pick up the obvious aileron roll exit. There are many more elements of a snap roll besides entry and exit yet as I read/delete/read/delete, etc. the discussion we are having here, it boils down to entry and exit positions. The ex-masters maneuver of 2 rolls in opposite directions. It is a thing of beauty when done properly  takes a lot of time to perform, especially compared to our beloved snap rolls, has many more places for the pilot to screw up that are EASILY VISIBLE to the judges besides the entry and exit points. That's precision aerobatics IMHO. AMA pattern was always smooth and graceful until someone decided as the FAI does, so must the AMA. Some will say it's progress, new maneuvers, it's just raising the bar to let the cream rise to the top. I'm on the side that the bar has sunk into the cream. Maybe the some of the lost NSRCA members felt similarly.
Ed M.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Doug Cronkhite 
  To: discussion at nsrca.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:33 PM
  Subject: RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)


  The rules for family 9.9 are as follows:

  "Snap rolls represent one of the greatest challenges to judge. This is primarily due to two factors: (1) the "snapping" characteristics of different types of aircraft are unique; and (2), snap rolls are a high energy maneuver that occur very quickly. Snaps happen so fast, in fact, that is is virtually impossible for a judge to determine the exact order in which events occur, especially at the beginning of the snap. There are no criteria, therefore, for seeing nose and wing movement initiated at the same time as with the other autorotation family, Spins."

  The rest of the paragraphs deal with snaps not autorotating through the complete revolutions and so forth but there is no criteria whatsoever for line displacement. This would be impossible to deal with actually since aircraft snap so differently from one type to another. A top level unlimited airplane like an Edge, Cap, or Sukhoi displaces very little, but people flying lower classes in Decathlons, Clipped Wing Cubs and so forth displace a great deal in a snap. There's just no way to fairly judge with a single standard across all aircraft types.

  -Doug





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    From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dean Pappas
    Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:15 PM
    To: discussion at nsrca.org
    Subject: RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)


    Thanks Doug,
    You don't happen to have the piece of text in a form that could be pasted into this forum, do ya'?

    Dean Pappas 
    Sr. Design Engineer 
    Kodeos Communications 
    111 Corporate Blvd. 
    South Plainfield, N.J. 07080 
    (908) 222-7817 phone 
    (908) 222-2392 fax 
    d.pappas at kodeos.com 

      -----Original Message-----
      From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Doug Cronkhite
      Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:14 PM
      To: discussion at nsrca.org
      Subject: RE: Displacement during snap rolls (was Why is it so quiet?)


      No track downgrade Dean. Since a snap roll is a yaw induced maneuver (or should be at least) it's nigh-impossible to actually snap the airplane and not displace the line a little. Especially when you consider the low weight and inertia of our airplanes as compared to full scale.

      -Doug


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