Wind correction / wings level take 2

[Ken Velez]

   I still don't understand why are the wings moving or why they need to be
moved.  If you fly a horizontal line left to right with the same wind
condition as described by Jim, once you achieved the crab angle to maintain
a straight line no more rudder is needed unless the wind changes. The
airplane should maintain that heading and wings level. In case of  the
reverse humpty if you push from the top with the crab angle in and the wings
are level before the push the track is maintained without the help of wing
movement. That's what we are looking for anyway, track straight with wings
level. If thru that push or pull the wings move I think the problem lies
somewhere else. As far as Dave Lockhart we fly together some times and I can
tell you if you see any roll movement thru a loop or loop segment the source
of  the roll correction is other than wind correction. If wing position is
used to wind correct in my opinion it should be downgraded.

Regards
Ken V.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <js.smith at verizon.net>
To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: Wind correction / wings level take 2


While attending the Sayre contest this past weekend, my friend and I decided
to do a little practice judging while Dave Lockhart flew.  We were amazed to
see him doing exactly that.blending the roll while executing loops.  In fact
we had a discussion after his flight trying to figure out how he did it.
Our conclusion was "you roll into the wind" while pulling or pushing.at
least for quarter loops.

When Dave flew, you couldn't see the roll correction.just the fact that the
track was perfect going in and perfect coming out and the wings were always
level or square to the flight line.  A real treat to watch!

Scott

>
> From: Jim_Woodward at beaerospace.com
> Date: 2004/08/09 Mon PM 01:39:25 EDT
> To: discussion at nsrca.org
> Subject: Wind correction / wings level take 2
>
> Hi All,
>
> I think discussion about 1 single maneuver will address everything I sent
> initially below.  P05, Reverse humpty-bump, 2/4 down, 1/2 roll up:
> Scenario.  The wind is blowing 20 mph 90 degrees out.
>
> 1.  Entry;  the plane is flying a horizontal inverted track at the top of
> the box right to left, the fuselage is yawed 10 degrees  inward to
> compensate for the wind.
> 2.  Entry Radius:  Pilot pulls up elevator while simultaneously adding
> aileron and rudder to transition the plane to a vertically tracked
> downline, fuselage is angled into the wind to maintain vertical track.
> 3.  2/4 is performed maintaining track (still angled in to compensate for
> the wind)
> 4.  Bottom radius:  The pilot pushes around the bottom adding rudder to
> maintain track, ailerons to level the wings around the bottom, then
> opposite rudder to lean "into" the wind on the upline. (obviously, pilot
> nor judge wants to see banked wings at the bottom this maneuver which
> would result if no aileron was added due to downline cant/angle of
> fuselage to maintain track).
> 5.  1/2 roll is performed still angled in somewhat.
> 6.  Pilot switches rudder input to still compensate for the wind on the
> upline.
> 7.  Exit radius:  Pilot pushes out, using rudder to maintain heading, and
> aileron to create wings level across the top of the box.  Blended in with
> the exit, the plane is now wings level angled "in" to compensate for the
> wind, heading into the reverse double I.
>
> There is a lot of "flying" going on in the 3 different radii of this
> maneuver.  The wings/plane MUST actually roll to achieve the various
> "wings-level" positions of the: downlines, bottom radius, upline, and upon
> exit.  Is this amount of "flying" done in the radii simply addressed in
> the wind correction statements like:  "each maneuver must be
> wind-corrected to preserve the overall geometry"?
>
> My contention again is that the plane MUST perform a blended rolling
> element during the radii to create a cross-wind corrected maneuver.  I
> think the best looking thing to do is move the wings at a rate
> proportional to the arc of the radii - thus, you don't "see" a discreet
> aileron fix.  A discrete aileron fix at the end of the radii would be a
> certain queue to downgrade.  I believe I've learned the correct way to fly
> a cross wind condition, but I have not heard anyone really discuss the
> amount or "flying" going on in the various radii to handle a cross wind
> condition.
> Thanks,
> Jim W.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Forwarded by Jim Woodward/BEA on 08/09/2004 01:05 PM -----
>
>
> Jim_Woodward at beaerospace.com
> Sent by: discussion-request at nsrca.org
> 08/09/2004 09:12 AM
> Please respond to discussion
>
>
>         To:     discussion at nsrca.org
>         cc:
>         Subject:        Wind correction / wings level
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I want to bring up a discussion point about wind correction.  This may
> seem obvious to some but I want to ensure I have the right picture in my
> mind (started thinking about this since Don S. posted his comments about
> Q.S. flying wind correction in finals, and confirmed during some practice
> yesterday).
> 1.  Wind correction is supposed to be done while maintaining wings level.
> 2.  You are supposed to use the yaw angle to correct for the wind.
> Situation:  Pilot is flying a square loop ( at center).  Wind is blowing
> 90 degree out 20 mph.  Pilot fly's past center at a some yaw angle in to
> compensate for the wind blowing out.  The pilot pulls a 90 degree radius
> to a vertical upline.  The fuselage is canted in to the wind to compensate
> for the wind blowing out.  *Point of discussion:  If the pilot were to
> pull another 90 degree radius, the wings would become "unlevel" as the
> plane reaches the top leg of the square loop.  *Point of discussion:  So,
> if the pilot is using the correct technique for wind correction (wind
> correcting force being yaw angle), then every time the pilot creates a
> radius, you should definitely "see" the ailerons moving the wings through
> the radius to ensure that as the radius is finished, the wings are level
> for the next line and the fuselage is yawed for wind correction.  Same
> thing next radiu s;  The pilot adds pitch, moves the wings,  and adds the
> correct rudder to transform the top of the box line to the next downline
> (wings level, yawed into the wind), etc.
>
> *Point of discussion:  We spend a lot of time concentrating on wings level
> for normal pattern flying and usually "any" type of aileron or wing
> movement is a visual key for a downgrade using the 1 pt / 15 degree rule.
> However, this is false to accurately judge flying on a windy day.  In
> order to fly in a crosswind, nearly EVERY radius will have some amount of
> roll induced (and necessary) to ensure that the "lines" can be flown with
> wings level and in order to utilize yaw as the wind-correcting force.
>
> That said/ when and how much roll should be used?  I would guess that you
> would want to seamlessly input the pitch, aileron, and rudder so that the
> plane just appears to go from one wind corrected line to the other
> magically.  What is the judging criteria for inputting a roll function in
> the radius to ensure the wings stay level & fuselage stays canted (yawed)
> into the wind from one wind corrected line to another?  Should the amount
> of aileron needed to go from one wind corrected line to another line start
> and finish corresponding to the actual duration of the radius?  What if
> the pilot only correct s the wing as the plane is nearing the end of the
> radius, is this some downgrade because the correction was placed near the
> end of the radius instead of "evenly-througout" the radius?
>
> I'm sure I'm exaggerating this situation and I am purposefully, to
> stimulate some talk on the subject.  Again, my contention is that for some
> wind conditions, in order to maintain the overall geometry of the maneuver
> that there MUST be roll correction during radii to seamlessly move from
> one wind corrected line to another, and this roll correction should not be
> downgraded.
>
> Any takers?
> Jim W.
>
>

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