Judging questions

[Scott Smith]

4. Both complete and partial square loops must  have corners which are
constant and identical radii, i.e., the corner loops must be perfect arcs
which are equal in size. Any inequality in loop size or defect in
circularity should be downgraded in relation to the severity of the defect.

I think the key words here are "Any inequality" (and not "Any inequalities
to the initial loop segment")

  -----Original Message-----
  From: discussion-request at nsrca.org [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On
Behalf Of mike mueller
  Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 8:34 PM
  To: discussion at nsrca.org
  Subject: Re: Judging questions


  Bob, I totally agree with your point here. Mike

  Bob Pastorello <rcaerobob at cox.net> wrote:
    Someone illuminate for me...how can one say the first part radii does
NOT set the standard, when it is compared to other part radii's in the whole
maneuver????  Am I missing something that is so fundamental that I am blind
to it?

    Or was that part of the downgrade not identified in the rule book?

    Or do I not have the most current rule book?

    Bob Pastorello
    rcaerobob at cox.net
    www.rcaerobats.net


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Rcmaster199 at aol.com
      To: discussion at nsrca.org
      Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:32 PM
      Subject: Re: Webra and Judging questions


      Dave, I echo DL's comments. Don't think twice about it.

      Basically, in any maneuver requiring a radius to enter it and exit it,
(pretty much all non-rolling maneuvers), none of the radii within the
maneuver are "THE Standard One" that the others are compared to for
equivalence. They all stand alone and are compared to the others within the
maneuver. If the judge sees the same radii for all looping elements, he
assesses no downgrade for the looping elements.

      Note that there are other elements in most maneuvers such as lines,
rolls and multiple point rolls,angles, snap rolls, and superposition within
a single plane (like two loops) etc., so there are downgrades galore in any
maneuver just waiting.

      If all four looping elements (4 corners in Dave's example square loop)
are different, then they are all different compared to each other. Depending
on severity, I assess 3-4 point downgrade for this infraction alone if
that's all I saw different. Remember it's the pilot's responsibility to fly
with the most precision possible because maneuver accuracy is absolute and
not relative. He must also make the maneuver as easy to judge as to leave no
doubt in the judge's mind.

      HOWEVER, (caps to make the point) If I did not see an error, I award
the maximum points possible. I know some say that there is no maneuver that
can possibly be done perfectly. Personally, I don't know how true such a
statement is but IF I didn't see an error, then it did not happen for me,
regardless of how much the pilot had to fight the plane in a crosswind to
make the maneuver perfect. Always remember to judge track and not attitude,
since every maneuver must be flown in a wind corrected fashion if there's
wind present

      Judging the present day schedules is not easy or for the faint of
heart. Please never hesitate to ask for advice on judging of any of us long
timers. It is the part of our sport that needs the most work still and I ask
all who read this to become better students of judging. There is a great
amount of information that must be assimilated to be a fair judge. Please,
please, please, ask questions. Consider how much time we spend flying and
honing our skills. Is it fair for an incompetent, uncaring judge to judge
someone's superior flying skill?

      Regards and my apologies for the long note,

      Mattk
        Dave,

        No pardon needed.

        Obviously enough, once the 1st radius is completed, it must be
duplicated 3 times or downgrades will occur.  However, the idea is this - 3
of 4 radii (any 3) on a square loop match - the 4th (any 1) is larger or
smaller.  It doesn't matter whether the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th radius is the
one that does not match - the downgrade is for 1 radius being mismatched.

        A square loop at center could have 4 radii that are all different
and still be a square - judge the overall shape of the maneuver - ie -
        - up and downline are equally spaced left/right of the center pole
and maintain vertical track,
        - top and bottom lines maintain track with same entry/exit altitude,
        - distance between top/bottom lines is same as up/down lines.

        And while I suspect you know, in addition to the entry and exit
radii needing to be equal on humpties, they are only 2 of the 3 radii in the
manuever - the entry and exit radii must be equal to the top (or bottom)
half loop radius.  Same goes for things like the goldfish (entry, exit, and
3/4 loop) and golfball (entry, exit, and 3/4 loop) in the F3A schedules -
and those are probably 2 of the manuevers where I've seen the greatest
variance in radii.

        Regards,

        Dave Lockhart
        DaveL322 at comcast.net

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: David Wartel
          To: discussion at nsrca.org
          Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 8:32 PM
          Subject: Re: Webra and Judging questions


          Please pardon my ignorance, but I'm fairly new to pattern and
judging. I'm having a hard time understanding this. Nothing was said about
this at the judging seminar I attended in June, (that I remember) except
that radii should be equal. Also, if maneuvers are judged on symmetry, how
can, for instance, a square loop or cuban eight be symmetrical if the radii
are not all equal?

          Matt, I hope you can clarify your answer as it seems contradictory
to me. On one hand the first radius does not set the standard for the
others, but the entry and exit radii should be the same for Humpty's and top
hats etc??

          Dave


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