Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????

Tue Nov 11 13:46:49 AKST 2003

Wayne:

Exactly the point.  If we can't follow the rules to judge it properly, maybe
it's time to quit judging it.  After all, this maneuver has not changed
much, even from the early days of pattern  <VBG>  So, if we STILL can't
judge it, let's try something else....

I see this problem at most all of the contests every year, including the
NATS.  I judge Masters class, and find that many of the FAI judges sitting
with me don't know the rules to judge it.

Tony Stillman
Radio South
3702 N. Pace Blvd.
Pensacola, FL 32505
1-800-962-7802
www.radiosouthrc.com
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wayne Galligan" <wgalligan at goodsonacura.com>
To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????

> But flight is not attainable without take off and landing.  So I say keep
> the scoring.
>
> Take-offs optional.... landings mandatory.    The only thing I saw
> controversial about scoring takeoffs/landings is where the plane lifts off
> and touches down.   Some would score based on how close it is to the
center
> of box line.  It states that scoring is based on touchdown with-in the 15
> meters left or right of the box center then deductions for path, attitude
> and centering on the runway.   I know the ONLY way I could get a ten is if
I
> put it right on the center line and center box with a 3 pt touchdown or on
> the takeoff.  This was outlined by the CD at two different contests to
score
> maximum points that touchdown/take off occur between the15 meters both
sides
> of the center of the box and still seemed to be overlooked.
>
> Don Ramsey...help me out here.
>
> Wayne G.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <rcaerobob at cox.net>
> To: <discussion at nsrca.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:56 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????
>
>
> Certainly worthwhile, after seeing years of needless (and useless) contest
> controversy over landings and takeoffs.  The objective of the game is
> FLIGHT.
>
> LET's contact those Contest Board members and support this
proposal....Which
> number is it,Ron???
>
> >
> > From: Ron Van Putte <vanputte at cox.net>
> > Date: 2003/11/11 Tue PM 03:53:33 EST
> > To: discussion at nsrca.org
> > Subject: Re: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????
> >
> >
> > On Nov 11, 2003, at 8:30 AM, John Ferrell wrote:
> >
> > > One of my pet peeves:
> > > Just where and what does the rule book say about judging attitude
> > > on landings? Its still track and that is not judged until the final 2
> > > meters!
> > >
> > > He who does not keep a wing low into a crosswind on landings needs
> > > more airplanes.
> > >
> > > I am beginning to see the logic in FAI scoring: We cannot seem to get
> > > the judges to score To & L's properly, so lets concentrate on flying.
> > > I will back off on my earlier suggestion to make them each a K4. After
> > > reading this thread I am now favor of ignoring everything that is not
> > > bracketed by "in the box" & "out of the box".
> > >
> > > If there is this much confusion among this group there is little hope
> > > at a contest.
> > >
> > > I have never seen it done, but as I read the rule book the AMA pilot
> > > could realize over the threshhold at 50 feet or so that things are
> > > sour with this approach. Could he not make an abrupt circle out into
> > > the flight area and try again WITHOUT PENALTY if he does not pass in
> > > front of the judges?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > There is a rule change proposal to score takeoffs and landings 1 or 10.
> >   Let's get behind it and let our district's' contest board members know
> > how we feel.
> >
> > Ron Van Putte
> >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Del Rykert
> > > To: discussion at nsrca.org
> > > Sent:Tuesday, November 11, 2003 1:35 PM
> > > Subject:Re: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????
> > >
> > > all true but I've rarely seen a pilot slip to landing smoothly. I can
> > > only think of one time I've seen it and I wasn't judging and don't
> > > know how he scored but I felt he deserved a decent score from my
> > > viewing angle.
> > >
> > > Del
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Henderson,Eric
> > > To: discussion at nsrca.org
> > > Sent:Tuesday, November 11, 2003 6:43 AM
> > > Subject:RE: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????
> > >
> > > AMA rules state you can side slip:-
> > >
> > > The landing will not be downgraded if:
> > >
> > > 3.The pilot elects to "slip to a landing," to handle
> > > a crosswind condition, in which case the
> > > upwind wing will be low.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Eric.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:discussion-request at nsrca.org
> > > [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On Behalf Ofchadnortheast at shaw.ca
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:29 AM
> > > To:discussion at nsrca.org
> > > Subject: Re: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????
> > >
> > >
> > > He flies FAI anyway, I doubt it hurts the scores much :)
> > >
> > > Besides where does it say you cant slip?
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: mike mueller <mups1953 at yahoo.com>
> > > Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 7:20 am
> > > Subject: Re: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????
> > >
> > > > Exactly when are you supposed to start judging the landing? If
> > > > you stop the slip before 6 feet off the ground then it shouldn't
> > > > effect the judge. I guess after so many years of flying I can tell
> > > > you that I'm a little tired of the judges and there petty
> > > > preferences that shouldn't come into play. But hey that won't
> > > > change things so I guess I'll learn to deal with it. Mike
> > > >
> > > > Del Rykert <drykert at rochester.rr.com> wrote:Might be more fun but
> > > > doesn't help your score because it don't impress the judges.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Adam Glatt
> > > > To:discussion at nsrca.org
> > > > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 8:59 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Side slipping is more fun =>
> > > >
> > > > From: "Larry Diamond" <jed241 at msn.com>
> > > >
> > > > >>Reply-To:discussion at nsrca.org
> > > > >>To: "NSRCA" <discussion at nsrca.org>
> > > > >>Subject: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????
> > > > >>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:19:33 -0500
> > > > >>
> > > > >>OK...Maybe I'm loosing my mind...
> > > > >>
> > > > >>I had a conversation with an individual that told me I was wrong
> > > > and that
> > > > >>we don't use nor will ever use spoilers for a pattern plane.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>I do have at least one e-mail referencing that some folks in New
> > > > Jersey
> > > > >>have tinkered with this. I seem to recall a number of posts but
> > > > I can' find
> > > > >>them.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>What I would like to do, is take the responses (Good / Bad) from
> > > > this
> > > > >>thread to form my own opinion.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>I have never tried it. But I think it was advise I received from
> > > > a thread
> > > > >>on trying to control the speed of my landings for short runways.
> > > > But I
> > > > >>really don't recall all the points...
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Then again, perhaps I have lost my mind...
> > > > >>
> > > > >>See ya,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Larry
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > =====================================
> > > > # To be removed from this list, send a message to
> > > > #discussion-request at nsrca.org
> > > > # and put leave discussion on the first line of the body.
> > > > #
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> > >
> > > =====================================
> > > # To be removed from this list, send a message to
> > > #discussion-request at nsrca.org
> > > # and put leave discussion on the first line of the body.
> > > #
> > >
> > > ============# To be removed from this list, send a message to
> > > #discussion-request at nsrca.org
> > > # and put leave discussion on the first line of the body.
> > > #
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 11, 2003, at 8:30 AM, John Ferrell wrote:
> >
> >
> > <excerpt><smaller>One of my pet peeves:</smaller>
> >
> > <smaller> Just where and what does the rule book say about judging
> > attitude on landings? Its still track and that is not judged until the
> > final 2 meters!</smaller>
> >
> >
> >
> > <smaller>He who does not keep a wing low into a crosswind on landings
> > needs more airplanes.</smaller>
> >
> >
> >
> > <smaller>I am beginning to see the logic in FAI scoring: We cannot
> > seem to get the judges to score To & L's properly, so lets concentrate
> > on flying. I will back off on my earlier suggestion to make them each
> > a K4. After reading this thread I am now favor of ignoring everything
> > that is not bracketed by "in the box" & "out of the box".</smaller>
> >
> >
> >
> > <smaller>If there is this much confusion among this group there is
> > little hope at a contest.</smaller>
> >
> >
> >
> > <smaller>I have never seen it done, but as I read the rule book the
> > AMA pilot could realize over the threshhold at 50 feet or so that
> > things are sour with this approach. Could he not make an abrupt circle
> > out into the flight area and try again WITHOUT PENALTY if he does not
> > pass in front of the judges?</smaller>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > </excerpt>
> >
> > There is a rule change proposal to score takeoffs and landings 1 or
> > 10.  Let's get behind it and let our district's' contest board members
> > know how we feel.
> >
> >
> > Ron Van Putte
> >
> >
> > <excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>----- Original
> > Message -----</x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>
> >
> >
>
<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>From:</x-tad-bigger></fo
> ntfamily></bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>
> > </x-tad-bigger><color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param><x-tad-bigger>Del
> > Rykert</x-tad-bigger></color><x-tad-bigger> </x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>
> >
> >
>
<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>To:</x-tad-bigger></font
> family></bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>
> >
>
</x-tad-bigger><color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param><x-tad-bigger>discussion@
> nsrca.org</x-tad-bigger></color><x-tad-bigger>
</x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>
> >
> >
>
<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>Sent:</x-tad-bigger></fo
> ntfamily></bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>Tuesday,
> > November 11, 2003 1:35 PM</x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>
> >
> >
>
<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>Subject:</x-tad-bigger><
> /fontfamily></bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>Re:
> > Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????</x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>
> >
> >
> > <bold><color><param>0000,0000,FFFF</param>all true but I've rarely
> > seen a pilot slip to landing smoothly. I can only think of one time
> > I've seen it and I wasn't judging and don't know how he scored but I
> > felt he deserved a decent score from my viewing angle.</color></bold>
> >
> >
> >
> > <bold><color><param>0000,0000,FFFF</param> Del</color></bold>
> >
> >
> >
> > <fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>----- Original Message
> > -----</x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>
> >
> >
>
<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>From:</x-tad-bigger></fo
> ntfamily></bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>
> >
>
</x-tad-bigger><color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param><x-tad-bigger>Henderson,E
> ric</x-tad-bigger></color><x-tad-bigger> </x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>
> >
> >
>
<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>To:</x-tad-bigger></font
> family></bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>
> >
>
</x-tad-bigger><color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param><x-tad-bigger>discussion@
> nsrca.org</x-tad-bigger></color><x-tad-bigger>
</x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>
> >
> >
>
<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>Sent:</x-tad-bigger></fo
> ntfamily></bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>Tuesday,
> > November 11, 2003 6:43 AM</x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>
> >
> >
>
<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>Subject:</x-tad-bigger><
> /fontfamily></bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><x-tad-bigger>RE:
> > Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????</x-tad-bigger></fontfamily>
> >
> >
> > AMA rules state you can side slip:-
> >
> >
> > The landing will not be downgraded if:
> >
> >
> >
> > 3.The pilot elects to "slip to a landing," to handle
> >
> > a crosswind condition, in which case the
> >
> > upwind wing will be low.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> > Eric.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> >
>
From:<color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param>discussion-request at nsrca.org</color
> >
> >
> > [mailto:discussion-request at nsrca.org]On Behalf
> > Of<color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param>chadnortheast at shaw.ca</color>
> >
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:29 AM
> >
> > To:<color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param>discussion at nsrca.org</color>
> >
> > Subject: Re: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????
> >
> >
> >
> > He flies FAI anyway, I doubt it hurts the scores much :)
> >
> >
> > Besides where does it say you cant slip?
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: mike mueller
> > <<<color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param>mups1953 at yahoo.com</color>>
> >
> > Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 7:20 am
> >
> > Subject: Re: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????
> >
> >
> > > Exactly when are you supposed to start judging the landing? If
> >
> > > you stop the slip before 6 feet off the ground then it shouldn't
> >
> > > effect the judge. I guess after so many years of flying I can tell
> >
> > > you that I'm a little tired of the judges and there petty
> >
> > > preferences that shouldn't come into play. But hey that won't
> >
> > > change things so I guess I'll learn to deal with it. Mike
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Del Rykert
> > <<<color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param>drykert at rochester.rr.com</color>>
> > wrote:Might be more fun but
> >
> > > doesn't help your score because it don't impress the judges.
> >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> >
> > > From: Adam Glatt
> >
> > > To:<color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param>discussion at nsrca.org</color>
> >
> > > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 8:59 PM
> >
> > > Subject: Re: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Side slipping is more fun =>
> >
> > >
> >
> > > From: "Larry Diamond"
> > <<<color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param>jed241 at msn.com</color>>
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
>
>>Reply-To:<color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param>discussion at nsrca.org</color>
> >
> > > >>To: "NSRCA"
> > <<<color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param>discussion at nsrca.org</color>>
> >
> > > >>Subject: Spoilers for Pattern Planes?????
> >
> > > >>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:19:33 -0500
> >
> > > >>
> >
> > > >>OK...Maybe I'm loosing my mind...
> >
> > > >>
> >
> > > >>I had a conversation with an individual that told me I was wrong
> >
> > > and that
> >
> > > >>we don't use nor will ever use spoilers for a pattern plane.
> >
> > > >>
> >
> > > >>I do have at least one e-mail referencing that some folks in New
> >
> > > Jersey
> >
> > > >>have tinkered with this. I seem to recall a number of posts but
> >
> > > I can' find
> >
> > > >>them.
> >
> > > >>
> >
> > > >>What I would like to do, is take the responses (Good / Bad) from
> >
> > > this
> >
> > > >>thread to form my own opinion.
> >
> > > >>
> >
> > > >>I have never tried it. But I think it was advise I received from
> >
> > > a thread
> >
> > > >>on trying to control the speed of my landings for short runways.
> >
> > > But I
> >
> > > >>really don't recall all the points...
> >
> > > >>
> >
> > > >>Then again, perhaps I have lost my mind...
> >
> > > >>
> >
> > > >>See ya,
> >
> > > >>
> >
> > > >>Larry
> >
> > > >>
> >
> > > >>
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > =====================================
> >
> > > # To be removed from this list, send a message to
> >
> > >
> #<color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param>discussion-request at nsrca.org</color>
> >
> > > # and put leave discussion on the first line of the body.
> >
> > > #
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > ---------------------------------
> >
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> >
> > > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> >
> >
> > =====================================
> >
> > # To be removed from this list, send a message to
> >
> >
#<color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param>discussion-request at nsrca.org</color>
> >
> > # and put leave discussion on the first line of the body.
> >
> > #
> >
> >
> > ============# To be removed from this list, send a message to
> >
> >
#<color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param>discussion-request at nsrca.org</color>
> >
> > # and put leave discussion on the first line of the body.
> >
> > #
> >
> >
> > </excerpt>
> >
>
> Bob Pastorello, El Reno, OK, USA
> rcaerobob at cox.net
> www.rcaerobats.net
>
> ============# To be removed from this list, send a message to
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> #
>
>
>
> =====================================
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>
>
>

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